Riverside Avenue

[AJCORDON]

Deja Vu: Here's another project that the affected public has been left out of the loop on. Once again, organizations are "coordinating" on our behalf without concurrent public notice. The email body indicates this is just a resurfacing project,-not exactly. The report that I have (I got it at a RAP meeting!) calls for sidewalk replacement, traffic calming measures, "s" curve safety improvements, drainage and handrailing. I have seen no prior knowledge of this project in the RAP newsletter, COJ website, Daily record, or any noticed public meeting.



Thank you for your response, I am confused as to why project coordination is
occuring between a private civic organization (RAP) and FDOT, and not with
all the affected residents? Perhaps your legal department can shed some
light on this?

A.J. Cordon
----- Original Message -----
From: <Renee.Brinkley@dot.state.fl.us>
To: <andrewjcordon@comcast.net>
Cc: <gina.busscher@dot.state.fl.us>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:45 AM
Subject: Fw: Mill and Resurface SR 211 FIN ID 209342-5-32-01


> Good Morning,
> We have not held a public meeting on this project as of yet. At this time
> coordination is happening between the Riverside Avondale Preservation
> Group
> and FDOT, however I do not know when or if a public meeting will be
> scheduled.
>
> Thanks,
> Renee Brinkley
> Consultant Project Management
> FDOT, D2
> 800-749-2967, extension 7392
> 386-961-7611, fax
>
> ----- Forwarded by Renee A Brinkley/D2/FDOT on 10/25/2006 10:38 AM -----
>
> George H
> Carpenter/D2/FDOT
> To
> 10/25/2006 10:06 Renee A Brinkley/D2/FDOT@FDOT
> AM cc
> Gina Busscher/D2/FDOT@FDOT
> Subject
> Fw: Mill and Resurface SR 211 FIN
> ID 209342-5-32-01
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Renee,
>
> Since you are now the CPM, please respond. I am not aware of any public
> hearings since the subject project is for resurfacing.
>
>
> George H. Carpenter, P.E.
> Consultant Project Manager
> Department of Transportation District 2
> 904-360-5575 s/c 824-5575
> george.carpenter@dot.state.fl.us
> ----- Forwarded by George H Carpenter/D2/FDOT on 10/25/2006 10:03 AM -----
>
> Gina
> Busscher/D2/FDOT
> To
> 10/20/2006 03:15 George H Carpenter/D2/FDOT@FDOT
> PM cc
>
> Subject
> Fw: Mill and Resurface SR 211 FIN
> ID 209342-5-32-01
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
> George: can you respond to the following? Thanks.
>
> Gina Busscher
> Public Information Office
> Florida Department of Transportation
> District Two
> 1109 South Marion Avenue
> Lake City, FL 32025-5874
> 386-758-3714 or toll-free 800-749-2967
> gina.busscher@dot.state.fl.us
> www.dot.state.fl.us
> ----- Forwarded by Gina Busscher/D2/FDOT on 10/20/2006 03:15 PM -----
>
> "Andrew J Cordon"
> <andrewjcordon@co
> mcast.net To
> > <gina.busscher@dot.state.fl.us>
> cc
> 10/20/2006 08:20
> AM Subject
> Mill and Resurface SR 211 FIN ID
> 209342-5-32-01
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Good Morning,
>
> I recently came across construction plans for this roadway through
> Riverside-Avondale. Fred Wilson & Associate, Inc, appears to be the
> consulting engineers.The 3 page synopsis seems pretty detailed, however, I
> cannot recall any public hearings on this project. Can you please provide
> info on when hearings were held? Thank you!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Andrew J. Cordon
> 2056 College Street
> Jacksonville, FL 32204

[Charles Hunter]

Other than Post/College - which is obviously much more than resurfacing - I don't recall either the City or State holding "public hearings" on resurfacing projects during plan development (step 1 take up old pavement, step 2 put down new pavement). Both do often/sometmes hold public meeitngs just before they start construction, to let folks know about detours and such. (When the City repaved my mother's street, they got door hangers just before the work started)
Also, unless this project is unusual in doing more than this, most recent DOT projects fix broken sidewalks, and install new wheelchair ramps at the corners.
Does the City have one of those Town Center projects in Avondale? The state folks may be coordinating with them on "fancy" sidewalks? Have there been Town Center public meetings?

[RiversideGator]

AJCORDON: I dont believe that any public meetings are required by law here. I believe that the DOT worked with RAP as a matter of courtesy and to help insure that their improvements are consistent with the historic design of the area. After all, it is the only representative body for the area. As you know, anyone is free to attend the meetings, they are open to the public and anyone can participate.

As for the design of the project, it appears that, in consultation with RAP, the DOT agreed to make several changes to the original design of the project (which was going to happen anyway) in order to make them consistent with the overall look of the neighborhood. I really dont see the problem here.

[AJCORDON]

The "problem" is that a private organization is representing all the residents, not just the membership. Most of the people living in this area are not members. The organization has no municipal authority, but appears to function as a little mini-government. As you know, the BoD is not elected by the general public and almost no residents (except me) attend the monthly meetings. As I said, there has been no notice anywhere, so how is resident input being determined? Sounds like special interest to me, As to a Post/ College comparision,the project does not involve converting traffic patterns. However, installing traffic calming measures (medians) by the Cummer and other means to slow the through traffic, sidewalk repair/replacement and eventually returning the roadway to city control, does.

[TheITSteve]

There is a Town Center Project planned for Avondale, but that is St. Johns Avenue, not Riverside.

I will say that there are some sections of Riverside that really need to be repaved.

[AJCORDON]

There is a Town Center Project planned for Avondale, but that is St. Johns Avenue, not Riverside.

I will say that there are some sections of Riverside that really need to be repaved.

excerpt from Fred Wilson & Associates, Inc. File # 0508-A-RAP

3. The City has started concurrent design of the Avondale Shopping Village Town Center project. FDOT and its design engineers are are closely coordinating with the city and their design engineers.

I certainly agree with you that some sections of Riverside need to be repaved. In this case, if that's all that was being done, I wouldn't have posted anything. I guess my fundamental point is that the residents elected a representative for this district. If he/she doesn't have the time or energy to regularly meet with the residents about neighborhood projects/concerns and act on the expressed desires of the majority, then we need someone else. It should be (IMO) at these regular town meetings that groups (like RAP) can assert their organizational objectives, right along with the rest of us.

[RiversideGator]

AJCORDON: What is your real issue with RAP? Was someone mean to you? It just seems to me that you like to oppose everything RAP does just out of spite. This really comes across as quite juvenile. With me, I agree with some things and disagree with some things but it seems unlikely that anyone could agree or disagree with everything.

As for meetings, I have been to a RAP meeting recently and I am not a current member and am not on the Board either. Also, I think you will find that attending meetings with the goal of being an irritant is far less effective than attending meetings and putting forth helpful, constructive ideas and suggestions.

[AJCORDON]

AJCORDON: What is your real issue with RAP? Was someone mean to you? It just seems to me that you like to oppose everything RAP does just out of spite. This really comes across as quite juvenile. With me, I agree with some things and disagree with some things but it seems unlikely that anyone could agree or disagree with everything.

As for meetings, I have been to a RAP meeting recently and I am not a current member and am not on the Board either. Also, I think you will find that attending meetings with the goal of being an irritant is far less effective than attending meetings and putting forth helpful, constructive ideas and suggestions.


RSG: Neighborhood issues need to involve the entire neighborhood, from start to finish, especially when public property is subject. We have a duly elected representative to meet with municipal/ State entities, and that's all we should have. Otherwise, you set the table for special interest group(s) to excercise undo influence. I can't make it any clearer than that. I don't believe that I have voiced any opposition to the Riverside Ave project, just the process. Sounds like a reasonable objection to me and worth questioning. As for meetings, I go to keep up. I sit there, usually very quietly and just listen. You state that you have been to a recent meeting, how many general residents showed up and gave input? Last meeting I asked a very knowledgable gentleman (RAP Board Member)about a tree inventory. Next time at a meeting you chose to attend, introduce yourself-I would like to meet you.

Truthfully,we don't hate the RAP people. Most of them we don't even know. We used to provide professional services to RAP, free of charge. Like 95% of the neighhborhood, we didn't care about RAP or who was running this district. For 10 yrs we have lived here and until the Post /College debacle, chose not to get involved in the politics that really run this neighborhood. I still don't want to be involved. Since then however, we, and half our neighbors on this block alone, have seen first hand how community issues are handled behind the scene. facts sometimes skewered, resident(s) unjustly maligned,all to achieve an objective. If no one complains or challenges, nothing will change. How "juvenile" is that?

[riverside planner]

RE: The Avondale Town Center

This project began about two years ago and was the brainchild of the Avondale Merchants and community members. The application for funding was submitted by the Avondale Merchants Association, not RAP. The project design came out of community workshops - public meetings - and the preliminary design from which the engineers are working is the result of these brainstorming sessions. Upwards of 1000 postcard notices were sent for these workshops. There are supposed to be regular community updates on this project, probably at 30-60-90 stages, but I admittedly haven't been involved with this project since I left the city. We'll see how everything shakes out with the FDOT coordination, but public involvement was/is the core of the Town Center projects. Maybe FDOT can learn something...

[grimss]

I thnk you're wrong to assume that RAP's involvement necessarilly, preforce, prevents or subjects the involvement of any other interested party. RAP just happens to be the most involved/informed neighborhood group at work at present in the area, and because of its organized nature it's given some standing by local officials when they do anything in the historic neighborhood. There's no "cabal" working its own small-minded agenda behind the scenes; it's merely that the same people who've taken an active interest in the neighborhood all along--not just those who respond to an item-specific agenda--have earned a place at the table when items affecting their neighborhood are discussed.

[Charles Hunter]

I had heard that Cummer wanted medians, and even round-abouts, but wasn't aware the DOT had agreed to them. Also, haven't heard that DOT will be turning this stretch of road over to the City - just Post/College (the signs are already changing).

Edit to Add - I guess I'm spoiled, living in Arlington, it is a long tradition for the District Council member to hold regular town meetings for residents. C/m Lake Ray holds monthly meetings, as did both of his predecessors (I'm not exactly sure of the prior frequency). Come Spring, candidates to replace the term-limited Ray will be asked to pledge to continue the practice - and if they don't, they will likely be a one-termer.

[AJCORDON]

I had heard that Cummer wanted medians, and even round-abouts, but wasn't aware the DOT had agreed to them. Also, haven't heard that DOT will be turning this stretch of road over to the City - just Post/College (the signs are already changing).

Edit to Add - I guess I'm spoiled, living in Arlington, it is a long tradition for the District Council member to hold regular town meetings for residents. C/m Lake Ray holds monthly meetings, as did both of his predecessors (I'm not exactly sure of the prior frequency). Come Spring, candidates to replace the term-limited Ray will be asked to pledge to continue the practice - and if they don't, they will likely be a one-termer.

Mr. Hunter, it appears a raised median in that city block vice roundabouts for Cummer, plus some other(as yet undecided) improvements in the St. Vincents area. Turning the road over from state to city control is still in the discussion phase (as far as I know) but appears to be the objective.

Sounds like your district representative understands his responsibility. Good for him-Good for your neighborhood.

[RiversideGator]

The state road sign has been covered up at the downtown side of the Riverside viaduct. It now just reads Riverside Ave. I dont know if this means that the state has turned Riverside over to the city or not though.

[fsujax]

Riverside Ave will no longer be part of US 17, FDOT will no longer have anything to do with Riverside Ave once they are done with the two-way conversion. All control will go to the city, then the city can do whatever it wants to Riverside Ave.

[Charles Hunter]

Again, if I remember correctly, the piece of Riverside between Forest and Water (the north end of the Acosta ramps) will return to being US 17 once the I-10/I-95 interchange, and the new Forest Street exit, are complete in 2011 or 2012. Until then, US 17 will be up on State/Union between I-95 and Main Street. South of Post Street (where US 17 currently, or until recently, joined Riverside Ave.), Riverside Ave. (and St. Johns south of St. Vincents) is some other state road number.

[fsujax]

I thought the US 17 designation would permantly be on I-95 to State and Union St then back up to Main St north? I think thats how its going to be rerouted.

[Charles Hunter]

fsujax - our memories differ, my recollection is the State/Union thing is only until the Big Interchange is finished. Have to see if I can dig out my file on this again (things disappear quickly)

[Jimmy]

Charles, I'm impressed that you keep files on such things. I'm on the pilot program. I pile it here, and pile it there...

[Charles Hunter]

OK, I said "file" to sound organized. I have the same system as you ... which explains stuff disappearing.

[AJCORDON]

I thnk you're wrong to assume that RAP's involvement necessarilly, preforce, prevents or subjects the involvement of any other interested party. RAP just happens to be the most involved/informed neighborhood group at work at present in the area, and because of its organized nature it's given some standing by local officials when they do anything in the historic neighborhood. There's no "cabal" working its own small-minded agenda behind the scenes; it's merely that the same people who've taken an active interest in the neighborhood all along--not just those who respond to an item-specific agenda--have earned a place at the table when items affecting their neighborhood are discussed.

grimss: I guess we are just not complacent enough to accept that you folks know what's best for us.

[johnmeeks1974]

Riverside Ave. (and St. Johns south of St. Vincents) is some other state road number.

SR 211?

[AJCORDON]

SR 211?


Correct.

[johnmeeks1974]

The new exit from I-95 South onto Forest Street is a godsend. I'm glad that it opened. I made a quick trip from the post office on Kings Road to my church in Five Points. I'm going to miss the Margaret Street exit but this makes up for it!

[AJCORDON]

Latest email updates;



Ms. Brinkley,
Thank you again for your prompt response! I look forward to hearing from Mr.
Davis on the community involvement process. I reviewed all our preceding
email correspondence regarding this issue, and cannot find any mention of a
Fall 2007 public meeting that you indicated in your last email?

Mr. Davis: I will be more than willing to meet with you in Lake City, or
please contact me via email .

Thanks to all!

Sincerely,

Andrew J. Cordon
2056 College Street
Jacksonville, FL 32204
andrewjcordon@comcast.net
----- Original Message -----
From: <Renee.Brinkley@dot.state.fl.us>
To: <andrewjcordon@comcast.net>
Cc: <ken.davis@dot.state.fl.us>; <bill.henderson@dot.state.fl.us>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 9:52 AM
Subject: Fw: Mill and Resurface SR 211 FIN ID 209342-5-32-01


> Mr. Cordon -
>
> Per your request, I am forwarding your email string to Mr. Ken Davis in
> our
> Legal Department. Feel free to come to Lake City if you wish.
>
> As previously stated, a public meeting shall be held in the Fall of 2007.
>
>
> Thank you,
> Renee Brinkley
> Consultant Project Management
> FDOT, D2
> 800-749-2967, extension 7392
> 386-961-7611, fax
>
> ----- Forwarded by Renee A Brinkley/D2/FDOT on 11/13/2006 09:46 AM -----
>
> "Andrew J
> Cordon"
> <andrewjcordon@c To
> omcast.net> <Renee.Brinkley@dot.state.fl.us>
> cc
> 11/13/2006 08:51 "John Peyton" <JPeyton@coj.net>
> AM Subject
> Re: Mill and Resurface SR 211 FIN ID
> 209342-5-32-01
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ms. Brinkley,
>
> Once again, thank you for your reply. To the best of my knowledge, the
> general area resident have not been given the opportunity to be involved
> with this public project, however "coordination" has occurred between
> FDOT,
>
> Riverside-Avondale Preservation, Inc, and the consulting engineers. I am
> not
> looking for an argument, however, if you are unwilling to forward my
> concerns to the appropriate legal staff, I will make the necessary trip to
> Lake City and ask to speak with a representative there.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Andrew J. Cordon
> 2056 College Street
> Jacksonville, FL 32204
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Renee.Brinkley@dot.state.fl.us>
> To: "Andrew J Cordon" <andrewjcordon@comcast.net>
> Cc: "John Peyton" <JPeyton@coj.net>; <bill.henderson@dot.state.fl.us>;
> <craig.teal@dot.state.fl.us>
> Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 8:15 AM
> Subject: Re: Mill and Resurface SR 211 FIN ID 209342-5-32-01
>
>
>> Mr. Cordon -
>>
>> DOT coordinates with all interested parties, be it public or private as
>> well as individuals or groups.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Renee Brinkley
>> Consultant Project Management
>> FDOT, D2
>> 800-749-2967, extension 7392
>> 386-961-7611, fax
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Andrew J
>> Cordon"
>> <andrewjcordon@c To
>> omcast.net> "Andrew J Cordon"
>> <andrewjcordon@comcast.net>,
>> 11/10/2006 08:43 <Renee.Brinkley@dot.state.fl.us>
>> AM cc
>> "John Peyton" <JPeyton@coj.net>
>> Subject
>> Re: Mill and Resurface SR 211 FIN ID
>> 209342-5-32-01
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ms. Brinkley,
>>
>> I have not received any more information regarding my concern with this
>> project. I had hoped to hear from the department's legal staff. The
>> written
>>
>> overview of this roadway project involves more than just a simple
>> resurfacing (ie: raised medians "with other special features"). Although
>> this area is designated a historic district, the Riverside-Avondale
>> organization (a private NPO) does not possess the municipal authority to
>> represent all the affected residents. Additionally, the district
>> representative has not met with the public on this issue. I thank you for
>> your time, please forward to the appropriate personnel.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Andrew J. Cordon
>> 2056 College Street
>> Jacksonville, FL 32204

[Joe]

I find it hard to understand what you are shooting for with this one-man campaign.

At best, you'll get your public hearing - at which point you'll explain to FDOT how RAP doesn't really represent the neighborhood and outline the course of action you prefer. Then several RAP members, who have just as much standing as you, since they also live in the neighborhood, will explain why they disagree with you, and why then support RAPs involvement. You will be totally outnumbered, totally marginalized, and will be taken much less seriously than if you simply became involved in RAP and helped to shape the agenda that way.

But instead - at best - it's just going to be yet another public meeting where the majority of residents support one proposed course of action ... and one or two people disagree and complain about how that proposed course of action is terrible and will be the downfall of all society.

And believe this ... EVERY public meeting has some disgruntled person speaking about how the project at hand is the worst thing they've ever heard of. Every government official has seen it 100 times before. In fact, this is probably why FDOT prefers to elicit the opinions of a neighborhood civic group before holding any public meetings. Because they KNOW that at the public meeting, someone is going to rant about how much they disagree with something. That doesn't help them one bit, because they're getting similar negative feedback no matter what they propose. But this way, FDOT gets the rational and probably well-considered input of a community organization that, like-it-or-not seems to represent a pretty damn good barometer of what the Riverside community as a whole will support.

[AJCORDON]

I find it hard to understand what you are shooting for with this one-man campaign.

At best, you'll get your public hearing - at which point you'll explain to FDOT how RAP doesn't really represent the neighborhood and outline the course of action you prefer. Then several RAP members, who have just as much standing as you, since they also live in the neighborhood, will explain why they disagree with you, and why then support RAPs involvement. You will be totally outnumbered, totally marginalized, and will be taken much less seriously than if you simply became involved in RAP and helped to shape the agenda that way.

But instead - at best - it's just going to be yet another public meeting where the majority of residents support one proposed course of action ... and one or two people disagree and complain about how that proposed course of action is terrible and will be the downfall of all society.

And believe this ... EVERY public meeting has some disgruntled person speaking about how the project at hand is the worst thing they've ever heard of. Every government official has seen it 100 times before. In fact, this is probably why FDOT prefers to elicit the opinions of a neighborhood civic group before holding any public meetings. Because they KNOW that at the public meeting, someone is going to rant about how much they disagree with something. That doesn't help them one bit, because they're getting similar negative feedback no matter what they propose. But this way, FDOT gets the rational and probably well-considered input of a community organization that, like-it-or-not seems to represent a pretty damn good barometer of what the Riverside community as a whole will support.

Joe: Welcome to America!

Unfortunately, the democratic process can be cumbersome. I didn't invent it, but I damn sure support it. I'm all for majority rule, but show me, by code or statute, where neighborhood organizations are authorized to represent the will of residents, especially non-member residents, to the city or state without some form of objective process when public property is involved. Where's our representative? Why no open public meeting to date? Why can't we all play on same field, or at least be given the same opportunity? The neigborhood voted for the establishment of a historic district, I don't recall surrendering my rights to a NPO. These are the questions I am putting forward to the State.

I regret my inquiry of fair process offends your sensibilities.

[Joe]

You're really missing my point here

What I'm saying, is if you get your public hearing - the democratic process will clearly identify you as a fringe voice (at least on all the issues you've talked about in this forum) and you will lose. More people in Riverside disagree with you than agree with you. That is painfully clear. If you focus on public hearings you are going to come off as an anti-democratic figure standing against the interests of other private residents!!

Do you honestly think that if you get a public meeting set up before RAP has imput, that all of a sudden there will be a groundswell of support for anti-preservationist, anti-historical sidewalks, anti-two way street, anti-street parking, etc, etc?

I find it EXTREMELY hollow of you to claim that you are a supporter of "democratic" action - you're the one person, trying to invalidate the political will of a democratic civic organization by constantly shooting out conspiracy theories about how they aren't representative. Good lord ... if you are so democratic, whose opinion do you represent other than you own? You seem really really out-voted to me.

[Joe]

And listen, even though I'm getting annoyed - my entire purpose for posting is to try to help you out a little. Because you're really on a dead-end road here.

Your current course of action will get you nowhere in terms of actual issues. As far as anyone can tell, you are vastly outnumbered on every issue. So you're "welcome to America" comment is hollow.

Your only potential path to victory is through these same community organizations you seem to hate so much. You either have to join RAP and shape their agenda itnernally, or you have to start your own civic group of residents to represent different interests.

At best, your only hope on your current path is to engineer a useless meeting where you might come off like a crackpot ... or perhaps to score some sort of moral vicotry by subverting RAPs good relationship with the city and state (which I guess is probably your only real goal anyway). But if your goal to get anything accomplished other than tilt at windmills versus RAP, then you really ought to change your strategy. Seriously, you should consider it.

[AJCORDON]

You're really missing my point here

What I'm saying, is if you get your public hearing - the democratic process will clearly identify you as a fringe voice (at least on all the issues you've talked about in this forum) and you will lose. More people in Riverside disagree with you than agree with you. That is painfully clear. If you focus on public hearings you are going to come off as an anti-democratic figure standing against the interests of other private residents!!

Do you honestly think that if you get a public meeting set up before RAP has imput, that all of a sudden there will be a groundswell of support for anti-preservationist, anti-historical sidewalks, anti-two way street, anti-street parking, etc, etc?

I find it EXTREMELY hollow of you to claim that you are a supporter of "democratic" action - you're the one person, trying to invalidate the political will of a democratic civic organization by constantly shooting out conspiracy theories about how they aren't representative. Good lord ... if you are so democratic, whose opinion do you represent other than you own? You seem really really out-voted to me.

Joe: I don't think you get it and you haven't answered the question. What is the authority? How, if hardly any residents actively participate in the organization, is the "democratic action" being validated? Or is it, "silence is acceptance". Non-involment by a majority of the community is precisely how organizied groups are able to push agendas unquestioned.

Currently, there are approximately 800 (according to RAP) members. How many people live in Riverside -Avondale? Let's say 12,000, on the conservative side. 6.6%. 2-3 might attend the regular meeting in any given month, I'm one of them. Do you see where I'm going here?

You may be right, it does appear that today and probably tommorow, I'll be out on the "fringe". So be it. But maybe, just maybe, other folks will see someone not blindly accepting what 12-15 board members (and the hired-hand we got downtown) think is in our best interest. The only thing I am "anti", is sacrificing due process for expediency and convienence. As to the rest of your attack on my "hollow" democratic belief system, I'll just have to defend it with 20 yrs of honorable military service, a Navy/Marine Corps Commendation Medal, Navy/Marine Corps Achievement Medal, 5 Good Conduct Awards, 9 Flag Letters of Commendation and a bunch more.

Sounds to me like you don't want to be challenged or accountable.

[Joe]

Lol ... I don't want to be accountable? I'm a private citizen expressing an opinion. I thought this was about democracy?

One more bit of advice (and seriously, this is advice, I'm not just trying to give you a hard time) ...

You need to stop using language that makes it sound someone is subverting your right to representation. You are making stuff up. FDOT doesn't even need to be talking to ANYONE about sidewalk improvements. They're not even truly accountable to the city, let alone private citizens. They own the sidewalk easements. The only reason they are even talking to RAP and agreeing to hold a public hearing with you is because they are trying to play nice and get neighborhood input for once.

FDOT has the right to exclusively talk to RAP, for the same reason they might choose not to talk to RAP and only talk to a private landscape design firm. They can get design advice from whomever they want, and not involve whomever they don't want.

So RAP can't possibly be violating your right to representation in the process, because 1) you don't actually have one as far as FDOT goes, and 2) like you are quick to point out, RAP isn't a governmental body that's required to represent you.

[AJCORDON]

Joe: You still have not answered the basic questions. That's ok. Obviously, we are not going to agree,that's also fine. My questions have been directed to the state, lets see what they have to say. I'll keep this thread informed.

BTW, I am a RAP member.

[Joe]

What's your basic question?

[Charles Hunter]

oh good, I thought I was the only one who didn't know what hte "basic question" was

[AJCORDON]

SHOW ME THE MONEY...oops- I mean process!

[RiversideGator]

But Joe, if AJ worked within the system then he couldnt pose as a martyr and couldnt blame everyone else for the problems he sees. ;) :p

[AJCORDON]

But Joe, if AJ worked within the system then he couldnt pose as a martyr and couldnt blame everyone else for the problems he sees. ;) :p


So let me summarize here. You fellas are not in favor of:

Regular open city/state -sponsored district meetings where all interested parties can be informed and comment on community projects...at the same time.

[DamonNoisette]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but what exactly is the "system"? :confused:

I don't know if it's illegal, but I moved one of the drums to the left yesterday because they dropped the sucker right in front of our driveway so backing out would have been an adventure. Thank God for backup cameras!

Damon

[ryanjx]

The "problem" is that a private organization is representing all the residents, not just the membership. Most of the people living in this area are not members. The organization has no municipal authority, but appears to function as a little mini-government. As you know, the BoD is not elected by the general public and almost no residents (except me) attend the monthly meetings. As I said, there has been no notice anywhere, so how is resident input being determined?

No legal notice regarding the project was posted in the newspaper? Usually they would do that and it would include instructions on how to request a hearing if necessary.

[AJCORDON]

I think we determined that because its considered a "resurfacing" project, no notice was required.

I also believe that the people in charge said that they had been working with RAP. I believe AJs issue is with RAP, not JTA.

Actually DP, my issue is with FDOT meeting with a group and not the general residents, which is why I directed the email to them. Seems to me that if they (FDOT) felt the need to meet with one, they should include the other concurrently. That way everybody is in the know from start to finish. Unfortunately, the concept of a level playing field doesn't appear to appeal to everyone.

My problem with RAP organization and the district representative goes back quite a way and most likely will not end anytime soon. As in most institutions, there are good and bad elements. A fair open process, conducted by legitimate civic authority is all I'm after.

[AJCORDON]

Update: Received a letter recently from FDOT District Two Legal Dept. Letter states that a public hearing will be held Fall 2007 regarding this project. I will be making several trips out to Lake City prior to and will keep (try to!) this thread updated.