Official Cecil Thread: Cecil on the ballot: What you need to know [Archive]

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thelakelander

09-22-2006, 07:31 AM

Cecil on the ballot: What you need to know

By GREGORY PIATT
The Times-Union

The 1st District Court of Appeal ruled Wednesday that a referendum seeking to return Navy jets to Cecil Field should go on the Nov. 7 ballot as a nonbinding straw poll.

The court could possibly hold further hearings after the election to decide if the vote remains nonbinding, according to lawyers for Vote Jacksonville, the group backing the referendum. City officials dispute that interpretation.

Here are some questions and answers on the court case and the Cecil Field situation.

1. How can a court let voters decide an issue, and then the court later "interprets" what the vote will mean?

In Wednesday's one-page order, the court didn't explain why it decided on a nonbinding straw poll or what arguments it will hear if there is a hearing in mid-November. Because it was a short order, it is difficult to determine what the court will do next.

Vote Jacksonville's lawyers say the court could determine whether their referendum is binding or nonbinding.

Jacksonville General Counsel Rick Mullaney's interpretation is that the court ordered the referendum to be a straw poll, and that's it. He says the court wants to hear the case and could possibly interpret how other laws apply to a public referendum.

Professor Steve Durden of Florida Coastal School of Law called this a complex issue. He said the court didn't have enough time to hear the case and make a ruling because the ballots need to be sent to the printer today. The court allowed the referendum on the ballot and will decide later if it will hear any challenges, Durden said.

2. Can any citizen gather signatures for a referendum to defeat any city policy - such as building a new stadium or preserving wetlands?

Yes, Durden said. Voters vote to change policy. Most policy tends to be by ordinance, but it is possible.

However, a referendum can't force the city to spend money or force other entities not directly tied to city government to comply, according to earlier testimony in the Circuit Court hearing on the legality of the Vote Jacksonville initiative.

3. Can the City Council "veto" a charter referendum after the Nov. 7 vote?

The City Council could vote against a referendum as early as a day after the balloting, making it null and void, Durden said. The referendum sought to affect the city charter, which the council also has the authority to re-amend after the voters have spoken, he said.

4. Is there enough time after the vote and a possible appeals court hearing to meet the Base Realignment and Closure Commission's requirement of turning over the Cecil Field property to the Pentagon by Dec. 31?

Vote Jacksonville lawyers argued in court that during BRAC hearings last year, the city was prepared to turn the former jet base over to the Pentagon by the end of 2005. Ken Underwood, co-founder of Vote Jacksonville, said he thinks a changeover could be done in the six or seven weeks left before the deadline.

However, others such as Mullaney and retired Adm. Robert Natter don't believe there will be enough time. (Natter helped lead last year's pitch for returning the jets before city officials reversed course and opposed Cecil Field's revival.) Seven entities hold titles to the land, and opponents say it would take too long to get them to agree on handing the property over. It would also take a long time to get state and local money to relocate tenants and pay for anything else that might be needed.

5. Does the Navy even want to reopen Cecil Field?

The Navy has said it doesn't want to get into the middle of BRAC processes as they play out. According to Navy spokesman Lt. Karl Lettow, "The Navy wants the best solution for our missions, training, sailors and the communities that we are a part of." Those directions by BRAC that do not involve the Navy are that Florida has until Dec. 31 to take action and the Defense Department's inspector general must verify whether Florida has complied by June 1. During that process, the Navy continues to operate its East Coast master jet base at Oceana Naval Air Station in Virginia - a site plagued by heavy surrounding development.

6. Has anything changed in the status of Oceana as a contender to continue serving as the East Coast's master jet base?

Nothing has changed since the Pentagon's inspector general determined that Virginia didn't comply with the requirements set by the BRAC commission: that it thin out the crowding around the base. But for now, because BRAC didn't offer an option other than Cecil Field, the jets remain in Virginia.

7. Does the Navy even have the money to re-establish what it needs at Cecil Field if the jets return?

The Pentagon budget has been tight. In a February e-mail to Gov. Jeb Bush, Natter said he met with Adm. Mike Mullen, the chief of naval operations, who said Cecil Field would be a better location, but he simply does not have the money to make that kind of move and still build ships and buy aircraft. As a result, Mullen prefers to leave Oceana intact. The Times -Union obtained a copy of the e-mail through the Freedom of Information Act.

8. What is Jacksonville's legal strategy, in the wake of this ruling?

Mullaney filed a motion Thursday to the 1st District Court of Appeal to reconsider its order issued Wednesday. He said the court denied the motion.

Mullaney declined to elaborate on the city's next move.

9. What is Vote Jacksonville going to do next?

Vote Jacksonville will begin its campaign to state its reasons why the jets should return, Underwood said. That will include a fundraiser and television advertisements.

Their focus will be on how the jets' return can help national defense in a time of war, he said.

10. What is the next step for the Better Westside Project and Neighbors Protecting Neighbors?

Both groups, which oppose the jets' return, are going to work hard to share their beliefs that the referendum is deceptive and shouldn't be on the ballot, said John Daigle, spokesman for both groups.

Neighbors will start a TV campaign but that won't be all the group does, said Daigle, who declined to elaborate. The Westside group will mount a grass-roots campaign, he said.

greg.piatt@javcksonville.com (904) 359-4169

This story can be found on Jacksonville.com at http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/092206/met_5177067.shtml.

thelakelander

09-22-2006, 07:35 AM

Cecil Commerce Center Tract (JAA's parcel) - land use plan
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1820/cecilfieldsouth8qy.jpg

Cecil Commerce Center Tract (COJ's +7,000 acre parcel) - land use plan
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1381/cecilfieldnorth8ac.jpg

latest Cecil AICUZ map provided by Councilwoman Suzzane Jenkins
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4448/aicuzqd7.jpg

Claude91098

09-22-2006, 08:53 AM

Re: Oceana's encroachment problems as a MJB: As I stated earlier, I was an air traffic controller stationed at Oceana Appraoch Control, 1979 - 1981, I lived in VA Beach a couple of miles from the front gate. (429 Maxi Drive to be exact in case anyone knows the area.) Oceana had a SEVERE problem with being hemmed in by developements THEN...does ANYONE doubt the FOLLY of making Oceana a MJB 20 years later? It was all politics then and it will be all politics NOW. No commonsense, just our beauracracy at work! (Big eyeroll)

Coach1976

10-03-2006, 12:20 PM

Read this, from the Hampton Roads forum:

"Mike Barrett wrote;

Why would we let it go? The simple reason is that the cost of retaining the master jet base at NAS Oceana exceeds the value that the MJB provides in economic benefit. That may be hard to believe, but that is just what the fiscal impact analysis showed. Now when Jeb Bush was trying to hijack the jets for Florida, he had published a fiscal impact statement that was so grossly imbalanced that I can understand why some in Florida may be confused. But the fact is, the cost to host the jets is far more than anyone could imagine. Most of that cost is in land use restrictions that the Navy/DoD insist upon through the recent changes they made in the AICUZ program. In fact, in my view, these changes mean that no military airfield will ever again be located in an urban area near services, education, jobs, day care, and cultural opportunities. This change in policy will dramatically affect retention of military pilots and support folks, but that's just the way it is."

Do you want to know who the author, Mike Barrett, really is?
http://www.spsa.com/board/board-leadership-mb.asp

Jim

10-03-2006, 12:38 PM

So a far less restricted MJB (Cecil) would have a far greater economic impact.

Coach1976

10-03-2006, 01:04 PM

Russ Stalvey's Post, from The Better Westside site, in re: Littlepage's article:

About Littlepage's Article
« on: Today at 12:25:18 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Folks let me explain what is at play here on this map thing. Many thought that they could just overlay the AICUZ over the top of the Cecil and Whitehouse OLF areas and that should show exactly what the AICUZ would look like. If you will recall, I proposed people doing just that some months ago. But if you will remember, I also indicated some other caveats needed to be taken into account.

Oceana has been operating under special noise abatement procedures that have limited the noise footprint for many years...roughly 30. These procedures include higher patterns, steeper approaches and departures in the patterns and restricted night flying of the noisy jets. All of this affects the Noise Zone of the AICUZ considerably. Another thing that effects the Noise Zone size are the type of jets flying in the operational areas. You see, the AICUZ at Oceana includes use of the F-14 Tomcat. The Tomcat is about half as loud as the Super Hornet. If you were to eliminate the F-14’s and put in their place the F-18 E/F (Super Hornets) models guess what, an even bigger footprint. That is what is occurring today. The F-14 squadrons are I believe at this time gone (just within the last couple of months) and F-18 Super Hornets are taking their place. Additionally, regular Hornets are being replaced by the Super Hornet.....well you get the picture. Take all of that into account, the replacement of less noisy jets with noisier jets (both F-14’s and the older F-18’s), take away the noise abatement procedures including the flying at night restriction (this is a 10 Db Penalty) and you have all the ingredients of a substantially larger AICUZ. We haven’t even touched the F-35 yet which many say is much louder than the Super Hornet (Do a search on F-35 on this site for my earlier posts on this subject).

The AICUZ of the future, if the Navy is forced back, will be much, much bigger as a result of the aforementioned. In Mr. Littlepage’s article he states that the AICUZ could be10 times larger. You take the old AICUZ and push out the outer contour (the 65Db + Contour) a sizable distance all the way around (both Cecil and Whithouse), then extend the Noise Zone that extends out from the end of the runways considerably, then it is very easy to come up with a total area increase of ten times the old AICUZ AREA size. Heck....you might even think that those professionals that he was talking about may have even run some area calculations while they had the computers still running, what do you think? It would be easy for the simple minded critics to think that he was referring to distance across and discredit him on that incorrect assumption.

We must not forget the AICUZ increase at NAS Jax. That will increase considerably when you consider that the Super Hornets will also be doing ops there too. Anyone that was here in the past know that those jets from Cecil did a LOT of ops at NAS Jax. That AICUZ will extend across the river into Mandarin as well as most of the expensive property along the west side of the river working your way westward until you reach I-295, even connecting with the AICUZ at Cecil.

Massive folks.......just massive.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Claude91098

10-03-2006, 01:25 PM

Yeppers! Jets from all over the country that are in the area on a cross country flight may do touch & go ops at NAS Jax. That is a fact!

Also a fact: The jets have to fly low for approaches and tower patterns: Low and slow jets MUST use MORE POWER to remain aloft...hence..MORE NOISE.

Not taking a side here...just pointing out obvious factoids. :-)

Claude91098

10-24-2006, 06:37 PM

I have a question. I realize there are better places to get this answered but I'm figuring some of you fine folks at MetJax will know this:

I was out at Cecil Monday for a golf outing. I noticed that a few folks are living in the old enlisted base housing area and the officer housing off of Lakeview Road is gated with a coded entry.

WHO are the folks that bought/rented/leased these houses?

Is there a company that bought them all or is it managed by the COJ?

MANY of the old enlisted housing units appear empty. A few of the stand alone single family units looked occupied, but the duplex/triplex ones I noticed appeared to be not lived in at all.

I see the older, but STILL livable, units as a GREAT place to house the homeless! They are away from downtown, (St Augustine too!), and they have a perfectly livable place to stay! The on base housing may not be "Ponte Vedra", but it ain't bad!;)

RMC

10-25-2006, 08:29 AM

Claude, most of the old housing is part of the Cecil Pines. Check out the below link.
http://www.frontporch.net/communities/cecilpines/

If I remember correctly, the houses had the old flat roofs taken down and new trussed roofing installed not more than 2 years before Cecil closed.

Claude91098

10-25-2006, 08:53 AM

Thanks! I was just curious. :-)

chazj1

10-25-2006, 10:14 AM

By the way my Mom lives there and there is a waiting list.

chazj1

10-25-2006, 12:50 PM

And if you ever get a chance to go inside they have been redone and are beautiful. There is all new carpeting, paint, high vaulted ceilings, new appliances. A great staff who really care about the seniors-although they may look lke barracks housing on the outside, believe me they are wonderful on the inside.

The residents are all friendly many are retired military. The place is NOT for the homeless - it is great for seniors - the new thing is the adult tricycle - my Mom is getting more excersize now thatn she ahs had in years.

It is a real community of people that would be forced to relocate if the base were to re-open. When we moved down here Cecil Pines was one of the reasons we bought at Oakleaf -

We looked at many other areas of town and this was the best place for all of us. we would be hard pressed to find another situation as good as this.

Claude91098

10-25-2006, 01:49 PM

There are old "enlisted quarters" areas and there are the old "officer's housing" area. Is ALL of it considered Cecil Pines or just one of them?

The apparently empty looking structures I saw were the older multi-family enlisted units. A few of the single family enlisted housing units looked occupied tho...cars in the drives etc.

The entrance to the "officer" housing area now has a power gate with a coded key pad. I'm assuming that is the ones you are referring to chazj1??

Again...just curious. I was stationed at Cecil for a few years. It doesn't look the same anymore.

chazj1

10-25-2006, 02:26 PM

Nothing at Cecil looks the same anymore including the area around it -

I don't know the difference between the "officer" and enlistted housing.

Where my Mom lives is where the 3 electronic gates are on New World

Claude91098

10-25-2006, 08:37 PM

chazj,

Off of Lakeview Drive? Down near the golf course?
That is the old officer's housing back in there. It was a nice place even when the Navy was there. If they rennovated the houses, they could only be nicer!

The enlisted quarters were/are the ones you see on the right as you drive in from where the front gate used to be. There used to be an on base trailer park. I lived at 5025 9th street just off the main drag to the right...the first street at the end of the housing area. All of that is gone now...the trailers that is.
Memories.....:-)

thelakelander

10-27-2006, 10:00 AM

It’s not being billed as a debate, but City Council members Suzanne Jenkins and Lynette Self are hosting a community forum on the Cecil Field referendum Thursday from 7-9 p.m. at Calvary Christian Fellowship on Southside Boulevard. Representatives from the Office of General Counsel will be on hand to present facts about the referendum, which will be on the ballot for the Nov. 7 election. Invitations to the forum have been extended to both the Better Westside Project (against the referendum) and Vote Jacksonville (for the referendum). The meeting is open to the public and a question and answer session will follow the presentations.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=46169

AJCORDON

10-27-2006, 10:29 AM

Interesting move. This will allow them (C/M's) to sit on the fence.

"I think there is a disturbance in the force"

Suzanne Jenkins

10-28-2006, 09:45 AM

Interesting move. This will allow them (C/M's) to sit on the fence.

"I think there is a disturbance in the force"

Alot of my constituents have asked me about the reasons to vote for or against this proposal. While I will give my opinion, I think they should have the same opportunity I have had in learning the facts of the court case and the money that has been spent creating the Cecil Commerce Center when the Navy left us and shut down the base even though we begged them not to leave.

As the daughter of a retired Marine Corps Sgt. Major, I continue to say, this is a heck of a business plan for the Navy - to leave us holding the bag in 1999; we've spent millions of tax dollars to clean up the land and build and replace infrastructure to create the commerce center; and now BRAC not the Navy wants them to come back and the taxpayers to foot the bill to undo the last seven years of growth in the westside Cecil Commerce Center. How many corporations would we do this for all at the expense of the taxpayer? And while the pro Cecil Field return talk of the financial impact, it is still taxpayer dollars driving the numbers not private enterprise.

If they do return they can leave again anytime the national political winds decree it. I love my country and support our troups, in the end we are all taxpayers and as an elected official who votes on how taxpayer dollars are spent it is important to me to be accountable for the wise use of those dollars in the past, present and future. So far I am not convinced that the cost of returning the Navy (whose leadership says they want to stay in Oceana) to Jax is the highest and best use of taxpayer dollars.

I hope many of you will come to this forum.

AJCORDON

10-28-2006, 10:29 AM

Alot of my constituents have asked me about the reasons to vote for or against this proposal. While I will give my opinion, I think they should have the same opportunity I have had in learning the facts of the court case and the money that has been spent creating the Cecil Commerce Center when the Navy left us and shut down the base even though we begged them not to leave.

As the daughter of a retired Marine Corps Sgt. Major, I continue to say, this is a heck of a business plan for the Navy - to leave us holding the bag in 1999; we've spent millions of tax dollars to clean up the land and build and replace infrastructure to create the commerce center; and now BRAC not the Navy wants them to come back and the taxpayers to foot the bill to undo the last seven years of growth in the westside Cecil Commerce Center. How many corporations would we do this for all at the expense of the taxpayer? And while the pro Cecil Field return talk of the financial impact, it is still taxpayer dollars driving the numbers not private enterprise.

If they do return they can leave again anytime the national political winds decree it. I love my country and support our troups, in the end we are all taxpayers and as an elected official who votes on how taxpayer dollars are spent it is important to me to be accountable for the wise use of those dollars in the past, present and future. So far I am not convinced that the cost of returning the Navy (whose leadership says they want to stay in Oceana) to Jax is the highest and best use of taxpayer dollars.

I hope many of you will come to this forum.

C/M Jenkins: I am retired Navy. Personally, the more military-the better. However, I don't believe that the Navy will return to Cecil Field, that ship has sailed. The council and administration is on record as standing opposed. The point of my post was/is: the general public will more than likely see the referendum passed by a significant margin. The legal details for or against will, for the most part, be overlooked. Just the vote will matter to most citizens. That would seem to place you folks in quite a bind, as most believe you are supposed to represent the will of the people. The political fallout could be HUGE! I expect some C/M's (not necessarily you) to "re-evaluate" their position, should the heat get too intense. I think this upcoming meeting will give city council a pretty good indicator of where the public stands this close to Nov 7. I also think the centralized location of the meeting is an interesting strategic choice.

Claude91098

10-28-2006, 09:03 PM

IMHO, Jax doesn't NEED Cecil to prosper. Cecil's return, if it happened, would only truly benefit a select few locally to the tune of MILLIONS of dollars, mostly TAX dollars from YOU & ME. (Fed funds to ya know! I still pay them!)

If anyone wishes to discover whom the people are that stand to GREATLY BENEFIT from a Cecil return: Just follow the money and you'll have your answers!

AJCORDON

10-29-2006, 10:17 AM

I found this article during my routine perusal of military news.

Polls Show Solid Majority Want Navy Return to Cecil Field

WTLV-TV, Florida Times-Union and VoteJacksonville.com polls show Cecil
Field referendum favored by a landslide 28 points.

JACKSONVILLE, Fla., Oct. 24 /PRNewswire/ -- A trio of recent polls show
an overwhelming majority of Jacksonville voters favor a referendum to
return Cecil Field to the U.S. Navy for reestablishment of a Master Jet
Base.
- A poll released Oct. 20 by WTLV-TV, conducted by Survey USA, showed the
referendum is supported by 61 percent of Duval County voters, compared
to 28 percent opposed.
- A separate poll by the Florida Times-Union, conducted by Research 2000,
showed support for the referendum at 56 percent to 33 percent.
Moreover, 63 percent to 24 percent believed the referendum vote by
Duval County voters is the best way to decide the future use of Cecil
Field.
- Finally, an internal poll of likely voters for VoteJacksonville.com,
conducted by American Public Dialogue this month, showed the referendum
leading 57 percent to 28 percent. Crosstabs of the poll showed that
Westside residents support the referendum 55 percent to 30 percent.
"These polls show that Jacksonville is for the Navy, for a better
economy, and for Cecil Field by an astonishing margin," said former Navy
pilot Ken Underwood, co-founder of VoteJacksonville.com. "The results also
show that developers and Navy opponents cannot claim to represent most
Westside residents, because a solid majority of the Westside, by nearly a
2:1 margin, enthusiastically supports the Navy's return to Cecil Field."
Cecil Field was an active airbase and coexisted with the surrounding
area from 1943 to 1999. Today, according to Federal Aviation Administration
data, the base is still home to more than 60,000 military flight operations
a year - an average of 170 a day.
According to a 2005 report commissioned by Enterprise Florida, the
Navy's return to Cecil Field would bring more than 31,000 new jobs to North
Florida and boost the region's economy by $2.6 billion a year.
Pd. Pol. Adv. paid for by VoteJacksonville.com, 14286 Beach Blvd Ste 19
#224,
Jacksonville, FL 32250
Back to Press Releases

macthemouth

10-29-2006, 01:56 PM

Not really that is paid political advertisement

AJCORDON

10-29-2006, 02:35 PM

Not really that is paid political advertisement

The source was Defense Daily Network

thelakelander

10-29-2006, 04:57 PM

Btw, we'll be held to the same standards as VaBeach, in regards to the deadline:

The deadline imposed by the base closure panel is Dec. 31. Florida must comply with the law or Navy jet operations will stay at Oceana.

Tim Ford, executive director of the Association of Defense Communities, said the Defense Department would hold Florida to the same strict standards to which it held Virginia.

"They're not going to budge on these dates," said Ford, whose organization advises communities affected by BRAC. "It's the law."

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=112695&ran=36405

AJCORDON

10-29-2006, 05:08 PM

AJ notice the part that says. Paid Political Advertisement paid for by Votejacksonville? It could be in the New York Times, Defense Daily or Readers Digest. Its an ad paid for by Ken Underwood. Its as valid as all of Kens other claims. Which have turned out to be not so valid.

alexd: you are absolutely right, I didn't catch that. Although I have went on record as being very pro-military (retired USN), I don't see a Navy return to Cecil-regardless of what happens here. I do see change on the local political landscape.

AJCORDON

10-29-2006, 07:03 PM

Thank you AJ. I of course respect the pro military stance. I surely understand it too. But I do hope that your vibes are correct. One thing is for sure. Jax politics will not be boring the next 2 months. After the expected pro base popular vote win is when things should get very interesting. Its a difficult decision facing City council. They know its not in Jax best interest to persue the jets. Its also not in a politicians best interest to vote against the will of their constituents.

What they do after that will be a real barometer on the very character of those councilpersons. Hey, would I do the right or wrong thing if it meant my job? Good question.

I do think that in the meantime Council persons will do their best to relay to their constituents that this is a position they have been put in by the Mayor. Not by them. They will use this as an excuse to vote against the will of the people. And of course that will be followed by court fights by VJ.

But who the heck knows for sure. After all, I had the Eagles giving 6 this week. lol......

The politics of Cecil Field extend WAY beyond our little hamlet. The vote here will be irrelevant in the final outcome, except to those whose "leadership" brought this mess.

I'm a huge Eagles fan-D5M went to Syracuse,where I am orginally from. Everybody had Philly winning this game. Oh well, if Dallas loses, it won't be a total loss .

Holy Crap..Oakland beat Pittsburgh!

Claude91098

10-29-2006, 08:18 PM

The politics of Cecil Field extend WAY beyond our little hamlet. The vote here will be irrelevant in the final outcome, except to those whose "leadership" brought this mess.

My...My...Where I have seen THAT observation before???

I agree....:-D

Charles Hunter

10-29-2006, 10:57 PM

Assuming "Yes" wins the Cecil Referendum, I don't think the Council will have a vote to overturn the vote. They and the administration will drag their feet complying. Requiring the full 3 readings of legislation to implement should do it. There aren't enough Council meetings left in the year. Especially if the "hold fast to the 12/31 deadline" is for real.

Diane Melendez

10-29-2006, 11:52 PM

AJCORDON

10-31-2006, 08:01 AM

Charles Hunter

11-01-2006, 12:15 AM

MEETING NOTICE
October 30, 2006

Council Member Suzanne Jenkins and Council Member Lynette Self will host a community meeting to present the facts from the General Counsel’s Office regarding the Cecil Field referendum. Invitations have been extended to Better Westside Project and Vote Jacksonville. After the presentations, questions and answers will follow.

The meeting is scheduled for Thursday, November 2, 2006, from 7:00 – 9:00 p.m., at Calvary Christian Fellowship located at 3266 Southside Blvd. All interested parties are invited to attend. For additional information, please contact (904) 630-7372.

That's the big church at the corner of S'side and Beach.

Claude91098

11-01-2006, 08:30 AM

If Yes wins, those on the council will be scared to death to do anything. It would mean they could anger a majority of people who vote if they take action to oppose a yes. If yes wins, it means more people who actually go to the polls to cast a vote will be against the position the Mayor and council took. If they are the ones who "actully" vote, this can be a powerful inducement for those looking for re election to get very quiet about opposition of cecil.

Diane,
This is "just my humble opinion" mind you.
I believe MOST "voters", (not all...ok), go to the polls to vote without ANY REAL knowledge of the issues or the pros and cons except for what they hear during the "media blitz" a week before election time. They vote like zombies because they have a compulsion to exercise their right to vote moreso than being TRULY "involved" in the issues. A small minority of voters are truly "impassioned" and are learned about all the issues.

If the Cecil vote is YES, I honestly don't believe that there will be a "huge backlash" from the voting public at large. THERE WILL BE a HUGE media campaign run by the ones that stand to get rich(er) from Cecil returning if the Council voted to reject the vote. THEY will try to portray it as a "voter uprising" if such an event happened. The public at large? They will shrug it off and within a couple of weeks it'll be forgotten.:rolleyes:

Cecil isn't going to return. Of THAT I am confident. All of this hoopla is just pipe dreams of a few with money that want to make even more and inflating this issue to proportions that try to make it "appear" that the city at large wants Cecil back "soooooooooo badly and we'll do ANYTHING to get it back"...when the oppisite is the truth of the matter.:rolleyes:

If it IS passed, I believe the Council should follow the Mayor's lead and reject the vote. Wait for the bombs to go off and then everyone will see whom is REALLY behind the push to get Cecil back.:D

Diane Melendez

11-01-2006, 08:52 AM

Claude,

I would agree with your statement. Most people do go to the polls without any real indepth knowledge. The difference with the Cecil issue I think, is that it, unlike alot of other issues has received a ton of media coverage now being backed up by paid commercials. There are two community organizations that are polorized over the issue. The other factor is that Jacksonville has always been a very loyal Navy town. Reading any of the Cecil threads on this site evidences the emotional response to this issue. It is a very hot topic.

I think that there is more than a good chance that those voters who have not studied the issue but see Jacksonville as a Navy town will vote yes. Those on the westside will vote no. The backlash will be felt by the mayor at election time. Now if we were a year or two into his administration and not entering campaign time, the impact and voter attention to the issue could fade. But right now we are headed into the strong activity of campaign season and local elections. One side or the other will be unhappy with the outcome of the vote. Those who are unhappy will vent their dissapointment in the voting booth. They will not be voting for Peyton. This is the backlash and it will count.

People will not be thinking about whether or not the base will actually be made manifest. They will be thinking about the fact that the Cecil vote did not come out in the way they wished. One side wins, the other loses. In any case, it will cost Peyton important votes.

Claude91098

11-01-2006, 10:52 AM

Well, what I have observed from all of this is two simple outcomes:
1.- Cecil doesn't return and the CCC continues to grow. The new homes built and all the other "quality of life" issues will improve. Everyone "wins".

2.- Cecil DOES return. A block of people will lose their "quality of life" that is what they are really concerned about. They lose.
The rest of the city and region wins.

That's how I see this boiling down. The entire initiative to return Cecil as a MJB will effect, COMPARITIVELY SPEAKING, a smaller group of citizens in a negative way than the larger majority that will benefit.

Of course the ones that will lose are fighting this TOOTH AND NAIL! IF it were YOUR home and family, then you would be on that same mission to stop a Cecil return.

The CCC is a "win - win" for everyone. Cecil MJB is a lose/win scenario.

THAT is what the vote will be about. And I have to agree, even if I don't support it, that the vote will probably be overwhelming for Cecil's return as a MJB. IF that is acted upon by BRAC/DoD or not is yet to be seen. Like I've expressed before, I believe that "they" will do whatever "they" want, with or without the community/city's endorsement or not. Reality stinks, but it won't go away. :-(

Jim

11-01-2006, 10:57 AM

Claude91098

11-01-2006, 11:08 AM

Claude, according to a recent study, CCC at full build out would end up being pretty darn noisy as well which would possibly have the same effect on quality of life for those most near the CCC as would be for others if it returns as a MJB.

Point being, the CCC is not a win-win for everyone. There are still going to be people who lose. 24/7 jets (including the detested Super Hornets, just not as frequently as a MJB, and major commercial jets like 747's and more) and a slowing of home appreciation.

For those affected, the CCC would be the lesser of two evils. For the entire region, the MJB is best.

What a messed position we've been put into.

I realize that Jim...But SO DO the westsiders that are there NOW and the ones that will move there in the future. So KNOWING that in advance, they have less room to gripe and complain if it is the CCC rather than the MJB.
As it is NOW, they KNOW what they have and what is coming. If the MJB returns, there will be no end to the complaining.;)

thelakelander

11-01-2006, 01:02 PM

Well, what I have observed from all of this is two simple outcomes:
1.- Cecil doesn't return and the CCC continues to grow. The new homes built and all the other "quality of life" issues will improve. Everyone "wins".

Jacksonville loses, because we would have wasted a valuable economic assest with continued residential encroachment and warehouses. Cecil would not be attracted to major freight hubs like FedEx with restrictions placed on the commerce center due to encroaching developments like Dawson's Creek. End result-everyone loses.

2.- Cecil DOES return. A block of people will lose their "quality of life" that is what they are really concerned about. They lose.
The rest of the city and region wins.

That's a great possibility. The other is, it returns and we come to find, it creates spin off jobs, attracts more economic development to the westside and property values don't fall. That would be a win.

That's how I see this boiling down. The entire initiative to return Cecil as a MJB will effect, COMPARITIVELY SPEAKING, a smaller group of citizens in a negative way than the larger majority that will benefit.

Lets add another. No base, Peyton gets kicked to the curb and a new administration makes restricts additional residential development and goes after first rate tenants for prime mega sites. This scenerio would be best, imo.

Of course the ones that will lose are fighting this TOOTH AND NAIL! IF it were YOUR home and family, then you would be on that same mission to stop a Cecil return.

The CCC is a "win - win" for everyone. Cecil MJB is a lose/win scenario.

With the CCC being handed over to warehouses and nobody having any idea of what a MJB will really bring, this whole thing is a lose/win scenario.

THAT is what the vote will be about. And I have to agree, even if I don't support it, that the vote will probably be overwhelming for Cecil's return as a MJB. IF that is acted upon by BRAC/DoD or not is yet to be seen. Like I've expressed before, I believe that "they" will do whatever "they" want, with or without the community/city's endorsement or not. Reality stinks, but it won't go away. :-(

Very true, but in the end, at least from a local perspective, the Mayor, the council and the entities that own Cecil land hold all the cards. We're all just puppets being dragged along.

Claude91098

11-01-2006, 03:44 PM

That was just my opinion lake, same as yours was just yours I'm sure.
One thing is for certain: Come next Tuesday evening all of this banter about the vote will dissappear regardless of the outcome.

And FINALLY all those damned ads for and against will go off the air! (LOL)

Jim

11-01-2006, 03:52 PM

Can we all agree that the Post 11/7 era will be a better around here?

thelakelander

11-01-2006, 04:22 PM

Yeah, how this all plays out and what hidden secrets come to light will be very interesting.

chazj1

11-02-2006, 11:09 AM

Bottom line

No MJB developers make a killing

Yes MJB contractors make a killing

Jobs will be lost and gained in either scenario - to what extent is a big fat guess

No MJB affected residents live in peace - Middle class people - if you are part of the unheard middle class - who can be stepped on by the elite at will - make your stand and vote NO - it is the only choice that makes any kind of sense for middle class Jax residents -

Stop being a PUPPET - VOTE NO

And by the way a yes vote does NOT mean the same thing no matter how some will try to spin it. The next vote could be for a land fill, a correctional facility or whatever - WITHOUT your approval

thelakelander

11-02-2006, 11:21 AM

Metro Jacksonville Takes a look at Cecil Field

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/cecil_field/CF-entrance.jpg

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/244/57/

Jim

11-02-2006, 11:27 AM

Chaz, living in peace may not happen anyway. After reading up on what CCC would be like at full build out, it would be no different for those living closet to the base than if it were a MJB. It's now a lose-lose situation for many.

It's now a moot point. Somebody will be making money, somebody will be losing money, some will have lots of noise and pollution to deal with.....no matter which Cecil develops into.

This vote now means absolutely nothing either. The city has made up its mind which way it's going to go and even if it comes back a 100% yes vote, the MJB isn't going to happen.

vicupstate

11-02-2006, 01:00 PM

Lots of info. Good job. I question the salaries though. For the average to be that high, the pilots would have to be way up there. I'd like to have someone in the Navy confirm that. Pension, and other benefits might be getting added in to those figures.

There is a typo or something on the 5k per employee second set of numbers.

chazj1

11-02-2006, 01:12 PM

Jim

11-02-2006, 01:14 PM

Yes, benefits are included.

EDIT: Chaz, did you read the whole article? There are several shots of dense housing.

thelakelander

11-02-2006, 01:19 PM

At least it will be MY choice and not something thrust upon me.

by the way your pictores of Oakleaf/Cecil Field area are not indicative of the surroundings. Your post metjax takes a look at Cecil Field is pictorially misleading.

I could take pictures of Queens Harbour through the trees at the golf course and come up with the same sparse effect.

Chazj1, what do you want us to do? The aerials were taken in 2006, some directly off the city's updated property appraisers site and the ground photos were taken in areas at the base and within closest proximity. There's clearly a mix of both rural and developed property in those photos.

jandar

11-02-2006, 01:26 PM

Your article is heavily biased there, and thats not just me stating otherwise.

Where is the picture of Oakleaf Elementary?
Where is the Catholic School on 103rd in the crash zone?
Where are all of the houses just south of the base in OLP, not east of Chaffee, but west?
What about Foxmeadows, directly in the AICUZ that anyone has put up.

OLP itself will be over 10,000 homes at buildout.

What you guys have done is nothing more than a shamble of a story geared toward making people believe that Cecil is rural.

I will prove my point this weekend with pics.

Jim

11-02-2006, 01:29 PM

Jandar, if all that was showed were development pics, then that too would be a lie as the area is a mix of rural and developed areas.

Sounds like you guys want a fully biased story to begin with just in your direction and anything showing a down the middle approach is biased the opposite to you.

RiversideGator

11-02-2006, 01:31 PM

Bottom line

No MJB developers make a killing

Actually chaz, I suspect that developers will make a killing either way. ;)

Personally, I would rather see the base return and see the area around Cecil remain as it is now, without hordes of Yankees living in tract houses. No offense of course to those of a northern persuasion. :D

chazj1

11-02-2006, 01:32 PM

Jim

11-02-2006, 01:40 PM

Chaz, you have a few options to post pics. Try any of the following.

Click Post Reply to the bottom left of my post. Scroll down and find manage Attachments. After adding your pics, click Submit Post. This will create clickable thumbnails at the bottom of your post.

OR

Register with www.photobucket.com and upload the images there. Copy the link they give you and paste it into your post. This will put full size pics in your posts like mine are.

Need more help, let me know.

thelakelander

11-02-2006, 01:51 PM

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/cecil_field/Aerial-1.jpg

Your article is heavily biased there, and thats not just me stating otherwise.

Where is the picture of Oakleaf Elementary?

Oakleaf Elementary is located just east of picture 15 in the above graphic. Btw, the goal of this photo tour wasn't to post pictures of every house and tree around Cecil. It was only to give readers, who may not be familiar with the area a glimpse, as well as show the a little information about Oceana. Nothing more, nothing less.

Where is the Catholic School on 103rd in the crash zone?

The same place Oakleaf Town Center is at. Dawson's Creek was used to show development encroaching near existing crash zones because it was the closest development to Cecil's runways (see aerial under pic. 12)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/244/57/

Where are all of the houses just south of the base in OLP, not east of Chaffee, but west?

Apparently still waiting to be built. Once again, the purpose of the tread was to give viewers a glimpse of the area in general. For your side, pics of density condos were shown, since more people live in them, than single family developments.

What about Foxmeadows, directly in the AICUZ that anyone has put up.

Dawsons Creek is the only major housing development in Cecil's APZ1, west of Chaffee. It was chosen because you can clearly see its streets in the same aerials as Cecil's runways.

OLP itself will be over 10,000 homes at buildout.

No doubt, the DRI is approved for over 10,000 homes. However, they aren't all there yet, just like Bridgestone and whatever else may be in the city's planning pipelines. The photo thread deals with the present.

What you guys have done is nothing more than a shamble of a story geared toward making people believe that Cecil is rural.

Sorry you feel that way, but nobody cut and pasted trees in any of the aerials or photographs.

I will prove my point this weekend with pics.

Feel free. Be sure to include an aerial image identifying the exact location of the pics you take. If you need help putting something like that together, I could help you out. If you don't trust me, then I'm sure one of the other forumers here would give you a helping hand.

thelakelander

11-02-2006, 02:02 PM

Many people like me are visual in there perceptions - most of the PICTURES are of trees with houses behind them and tree lined streets - i know the truth- Oakleak and the suirroundings were all built after the Navy left - with no thought of them returning. It is a thriving beautiful area -

This all started with the slogan there is nothing out there but Pine Trees and your pictorials do nothing to disuade that type thinking.

One thing that has NEVER happened on this forum or any other media outlet has been an expose on the PEOPLE the real day to day people who would be effected. The everyday go to work, tax paying, family loving PEOPLE. I have never seen one reporter in the current neighborhoods - you only see jets flying or stock footage of long ago times.

It is certainly disheartening that this is not a people issue.

How do I post pictures on this site ? I will show you the real Oakleaf Argyle area as it exists today

Feel free to add your pics. Once we can identify the individual locations, I'll make sure we get them up on the front page for everyone to see.

Btw, the photo tour was heavily concentrated in areas closest to the base, specifically west of Chaffee. Since Argyle is to the east and not directly under flight paths, it was excluded. Nevertheless, this aerial still shows the Argyle area in relation to Cecil's runways.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/cecil_field/Aerial-1.jpg

jandar

11-02-2006, 02:04 PM

Jim

11-02-2006, 02:09 PM

You're using this?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/viperempire/yahoo.jpg

jandar

11-02-2006, 02:17 PM

Nope, yahoo beta maps.

Google Maps Satellite does not show my neighborhood being built.
Yahoo Maps Beta Sat does. But Oakleaf Elementary is still not shown as built.

Here are the two maps..... Both showing where Oakleaf Elementary should be.

one more time for the deaf, hard of hearing or thick skulled.

OLD MAPS.

thelakelander

11-02-2006, 02:23 PM

I knew the google earth aerials were a couple years old, both for Cecil and Oceana (I estimate around 2003 or 2004), thus I didn't use them for Cecil. Instead I used the city's 2006 aerials, available on the property appraiser's site (which does show Oakleaf Elem, btw). The problem with the city's 2006 aerials, is they are close up and angled views, so you can't see Cecil from them. So a Google Earth aerial was used only to show the location of the photo tour images. I'll see if I can find an updated aerial of Oakleaf.

Coach1976

11-02-2006, 02:36 PM

That map that was posted on page 3 of this thread, with the numbers, ought to zoom out a bit and show NAS JAX and Whitehouse. Both of these will see a huge increase in flights and noise with the arrival of the Superhornets and F35s. Argyle WILL be affected, BTW.

thelakelander

11-02-2006, 03:00 PM

The intent of the photo tour was to show images and their location to Cecil as well as general info about Oceana. Not the pros and cons of having a jet base.

Claude91098

11-02-2006, 03:06 PM

Try using that satellite photo site....I forget the address but anyone can use it. You can find houses, roads etc easily. :-)

Coach1976

11-02-2006, 03:42 PM

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/poll/index.html?poll_id=2167

thelakelander

11-02-2006, 03:45 PM

The arials themselves are outdated.

My house is over four years old and still not even shown on most maps by address.
Only yahoo maps has it, mapquest, msn and google maps DO NOT SHOW IT.

I can arial view it, but it still shows empty lots in my neighborhood which was completely built out over 4 years ago.

Google Earth does not even show Oakleaf Elementary or the lot, at least 2 years old.

The maps are OLD.

I didn't have much luck pulling an aerial from Clay County's site, but they did have up to date plat maps.

Here's Oakleaf.
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8674/oakleafccpa1cx2.jpg