City Wide opposition groups forming up. [Archive]

jandar

08-29-2006, 08:27 AM

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/082906/met_4696732.shtml

A group of builders, along with residents and businesses from Jacksonville's Westside, announced Monday they have formed a political committee to oppose the Vote Jacksonville referendum, which could allow the Navy to reactivate Cecil Field.

Neighbors Protecting Neighbors will attempt to unite neighborhood groups and businesses across Duval County to oppose the return of fighter planes to the former Navy master jet base, which closed in 1999 and is now a commerce and industrial center, said John Daigle, spokesman for the new group. Daigle also represents the Better Westside Project, which likewise opposes the Navy's return.

The Neighbors group will try to educate the region with a television advertising campaign, Daigle said. The group has spent more than $90,000 on the campaign, which will begin this week, and will increase spending if the referendum gets on the ballot, Daigle said.

Last month, Vote Jacksonville launched a drive to put a referendum on the Nov. 7 ballot, which would change the city's charter. The city's general counsel, Rick Mullaney, is challenging the measure in court. The case is scheduled to be heard on Sept. 8.

Vote Jacksonville founder Ken Underwood of Ponte Vedra Beach had little to say about the new group. "I wish them the best of luck," he said.

The Neighbors group founder and president is Neptune Beach resident Denise Wallace, former president of the Northeast Florida Builders Association. She is also a board member of the Jacksonville Chamber of Commerce, a member of Mayor John Peyton's Growth and Management Task Force and chairwoman of the city's Housing Finance Authority.

"For more than a year, Westside residents have been working hard to preserve their quality of life and to determine their community's future," Wallace said. "It's time we rallied neighborhood organizations and communities across Northeast Florida to stand with them for what's right and fair at Cecil."

Wallace said the countywide voter referendum would set a dangerous precedent that could eventually affect any neighborhood in the region.

Diane Melendez

08-29-2006, 09:43 AM

I think the September 8th court hearing is going to impact alot of plans. It will be interesting to see what the decision is.

Russ Stalvey

08-29-2006, 10:02 AM

Yesterday, the new group of homeowners and businesses filed their additional suit. So now there are officially two law suits.

Diane Melendez

08-29-2006, 11:07 AM

I tell you what Russ. This is all going to be very interesting. Depending on what happens on Sept. 8th and the wording of the new lawsuit, if the referendum is allowed after a judgement on the first case a second one may just be thrown out. In any case I think that what happens on the 8th of next month will be a good indicator of where this is headed.

Rampant

08-29-2006, 11:35 AM

Wallace said the countywide voter referendum would set a dangerous precedent that could eventually affect any neighborhood in the region.

IRONIC!?!

What's wrong with letting the public decide?
Petitions were signed by Jacksonville voters.

Diane Melendez

08-29-2006, 01:28 PM

Rampant

08-29-2006, 02:13 PM

Rampart, this administration has an agenda and letting this referendum go on the ballot is counter to their plans. Although on the surface Peyton is acting as though it is the Westsiders and private development of the base he is supporting, he is actually going about the business of protecting business assets for himself, his family and friends. It is rarely if ever about the citizens, their will or democratic process.

He's a politician; of course he's out for himself. Elections are not about who is best qualified, but about getting votes. Going against the return of the navy, secures him the Westside vote without losing many votes from rest of the city. If he had supported the return, he definitely would have lost the Westside vote and not really gained that many from the rest of the city. Regardless of what the navy could or could not bring to Cecil, its all about votes.

If it's about business assets for him, his family and friends; then I guess I've over estimated the intelligence of his stance. Unless he is evil enough to not care at all about the citizens and only cares about fatting his wallet (which I doubt). Now if you said it was about business assets to help secure future campaign contributions, then ok maybe.

Looks to me to be all about re-election for Peyton, not about impact on the city (positive or negative).

I also agree with the statement that it's rarely about the citizens or the democratic process. I was just playing some devils advocate.

Diane Melendez

08-29-2006, 02:27 PM

It is about Peyton assets in one way or another. Whether or not that is evil is up to the view of each individual.

I don't think you have over estimated in your view of Peytons motivation. I think you are just a good person who hates to think that anyone could be that uncaring about those they are supposed to represent. But some people "are" that uncaring when driven by power and greed. I believe Peyton is one of those people. IMO

jandar

08-29-2006, 05:58 PM

IRONIC!?!

What's wrong with letting the public decide?
Petitions were signed by Jacksonville voters.

Should people on the westside determine whether or not Neptune Beach gets a Walmart?

Thats what this referendum opens up.....

thelakelander

08-29-2006, 09:16 PM

That's a stretch. The city/state isn't shelling away millions for Neptune Beach's Walmart like they are for the commerce center or jet base. Walmart also won't create 1,000's of jobs, strengthen our ties with our local largest employer, create high paying spin off jobs and add over a billion annually in economic impact. A regular Walmart store to Cecil (commerce center or jet base) is an apples to oranges comparison.

Coach1976

08-29-2006, 09:52 PM

thelakelander

08-29-2006, 10:49 PM

Its one thing to accuse, its another to prove beyond reasonable doubt.

thelakelander

08-30-2006, 09:33 AM

Thats true just ask OJ........ Besides we can always find out after the base reopens.

Or after the commerce center falls flat on its face resembling Beaver Street instead of the panacea some make it out to be by attracting low wage warehouses. Imo, its best to go up to Oceana and the surrounding area and view, study and evaluate the pros and cons in in person. You can also do the same with the commerce center, since nothing is new under the sun.

Also, with a 12,000ft long runway and three others over 8,000ft, Cecil is much more than an airstrip. To move near next to one of the largest "airstrip" in the state, with the belief that flight traffic won't increase is silly, if you really sit down an thinks about it. It also appears that we'll be getting an increased amount of touch and goes at Whitehouse, regardless of the Cecil decision, because of safety issues at Oceana. So we'll most likely end up with additional jet noise and Walmart/Bridgestone truck traffic.

Anyway, this is getting tiresome. Metro Jacksonville doesn't have a court of law or attempt to act as one. Its a place where residents can come and voice their opinions on things happening in their community. Unfortunately for you, you'll have to accept that everyone doesn't carry your beliefs and that a significant percent of the local population views this issue from a different perspective.

Rampant

08-30-2006, 10:00 AM

It's not a stretch if said Walmart were to poison Neptune Beach's children, lower the quality of life of tens of thousands, leak hazardous jet fuel into the soil and water supply, damage the hearing of the residents, lower their property values, render their swimming pools and lakes unusable, and negatively effect the learning going on in local schools and churches.
So all those that lived near and around Cecil when it was operational were deaf, dumb, and poisoned? Actually you may have something there. Only kidding.

On pollution, you may have a point.

Property values, well if you bulldozed most of 103rd you probably could offset any drop in property value due to the base. (Only kidding, as that would be inhumane)

Swimming pools unusable, this seems unlikely, but if you have documents that would support that, then ok.

Negatively effect learning, well this makes no sense whatever. If that were the case many members of the Air force would have problems learning.

It seems to me, that people who are completely against the base returning are more worried about how it effect them than how it effect the community as a whole. I don’t blame them for this, nor do I think less of them. (Also not saying this pertains to you individually) However, taking the blinders off and look at the possibilities and weighing options before making a determination would seem to be the better course.

jandar

08-30-2006, 10:48 AM

Rampant

08-30-2006, 11:27 AM

Clay County uses portables for the vast majority of its Elementary schools due to the growth.

Portables are not noise proof, who will pay for those schools in the area to be redone?
Who is going to pay for new ones to be built completely enclosed at a much greater cost.

Why do they need to be redone? If it's such an issue, how were people even able to sleep who live in mobile homes on 103rd and around Cecil to begin with. When I lived in Alabama, we had no AC in a few of the schools I attended. So we opened up windows, only problem, one year they were re-tarring the roof. Still I learned, in heat and nausiating fumes of tar. I really dont think planes overhead will stop an individual from learning.

This is what the people on the other side of the river are ignorant to.
Yes, those who live on the other side of the river are ignorant. Especially the ones of us who live in Mandarin, you know right across from NASJAX. I have low flying helos, and p-3's over head daily. Guess what, doesn't bother me, but then again I do work on Cecil Field. Property value if you were wondering, still going up.

Would any of you that live away from Cecil be willing to take the risk of buying a house, living near it, having it become a MJB and losing property value?
Would you buy property near a superfund site, that parts of which formerly housed Nuclear materials, and is currently not a MJB? You might know the site as Cecil.

The issue of a MJB would not be an issue if people were not buying houses and living near a MJB now. Would I no, I'm fine living near NASJAX. However, by precident shown at the current MJB, the answer is yes.

I really think that people on the southside are concerned that this area is actually more profitable in real estate than any part of the southside and that more and more out of towners want to move to this area.
Ok, well you do get more house for your money on westside. Also more crime (according to JSO). I think there is more profit to be made, because there is more room to move up. I dont think there is a conspiracy by Southsiders as you alluded to. To be completely honest, southside voters for the majority could careless either way. However, given the option they will most likely vote for it returning due to the overall impact they think it will bring.

thelakelander

08-30-2006, 11:29 AM

You better hope the Westside doesn't resemble JTB in 10-15 years. That would be a worse case scenerio. I'd personally chose for higher. I can't wait to see the day that I can get away from the Southside sprawl and traffic congestion. Anyway, unless the commerce center eliminates the option of mega warehouses going up at Cecil, that area will end up being another Pritchard Road.

thelakelander

08-30-2006, 02:02 PM

Yeah, maybe I'll move to Argyle and complain about traffic from future homes being built in Oakleaf. As for the study, most local polls conducted by various groups over the past year show that a majority of local residents favor bringing the base back, if possible. This is one of the primary reasons and fears the opposition has to this thing being placed on the ballot.

Diane Melendez

08-30-2006, 02:35 PM

Coach....It's not a stretch if said Walmart were to poison Neptune Beach's children, lower the quality of life of tens of thousands, leak hazardous jet fuel into the soil and water supply, damage the hearing of the residents, lower their property values, render their swimming pools and lakes unusable, and negatively effect the learning going on in local schools and churches.

This is a bit off topic but when I saw this post it was something I did not want to let pass. Coach, you are on the money with your concern about the environmental hazards and their toxic effect on our citizens and our childrens ability to learn. The lightning rod effect of Cecil Field has brought these dangers to the forefront.

What I would like to point out and bring up at this juncture is that we and our children have been living with "toxic crap" throughout our community for decades. It is in the urban core, in our water way, in our residential areas and in our air. We have deadly creosote, dioxin and elements combined in our soil right now that are identical to agent orange. One small example, when people go to the Jags games the parking lot covers toxic soil.

Winds and rains like those coming tonight from Ernesto stir all this into our air and leach the poison from our soil. These toxins not only cause cancer but lead to organ failure, breathing problems and many other illnesses. What we now are living with in Jacksonville are toxins that effect our childrens brain development and fine motor skills.

Coach, you and others are correct in pointing out this danger. I hope that whatever happens with Cecil, we will get on the back of this city and it's politicians to get this problem taken care of.

The recent reports on Fox 30 and 47 have talked about the creosote and how deadly it is. We all need to respond and put the pressure on big time.

thelakelander

08-30-2006, 03:12 PM

lol, that should be fun.

Diane Melendez

08-30-2006, 05:36 PM

At this point I don't think polls or statistics are going to have an impact one way or the other. What matters is,

Does the Navy want the Base at Cecil Field? (We have no firm "recent" public statement or document declaring their intentions)

What does Jeb Bush want? (which we know the answer to be, he wants the base)

Can Jeb with the help of his brother persuade the Navy to see Cecil as "the" viable choice and get it here?

The other factors such as a referendum, Peytons opinion or groups arguing for or against will not matter. All that needs be said by anyone is that it is for National Security. The argument will be over. People will then have to decide whether or not they will fight a decision to bring the base through the courts. But again, the Navy has yet to state in an absolute way that they want the base at Cecil.

AJCORDON

08-30-2006, 05:49 PM

The Navy has no interest in returning to Cecil Field.

Diane Melendez

08-30-2006, 05:59 PM

If they don't then all this aggrevation has been for nothing.

But until we can see a "recent" document or get a current statement on the record verifying they do not want Cecil in Jacksonville there is no assurance. Bush has declared his intentions consistently and very recently. With Jeb having the connections he does, I cannot imagine why he would consistently discuss the base if he knew their was not chance of it's return.

jandar

08-30-2006, 10:29 PM

Clay Commisioners are stating 2 Billion for the Navy to move here, plus the COJ spending 2 billion to move tenants, get cecil ready....

thelakelander

08-30-2006, 10:44 PM

That's a pretty hefty price. You could build an entire city for 4 billion. Did they toss in the cost of the outer beltway or something? What will the $2 billion that Clay commissioners state, go towards? That number was never mentioned in the BRAC requirements, instead it was something like $200 million. This type of stuff would be great to know, if the referendum stands.

jandar

08-31-2006, 07:24 AM

That is straight from Patrick McGovern's email to myself and others.

Other Clay County Commisioners have stated that they have heard that the Navy doesn't want Cecil as a MJB, hence the lack of "support" one way or the other.

thelakelander

08-31-2006, 10:08 AM

Did his email mention what that $2 billion would be spent on, or how they came up with the estimate? It would be interesting to see the breakdown.

chazj1

08-31-2006, 10:32 AM

If you really would like to know the costs to Jacksonville - read the City's Lawsuit against Votejacksonville

specifically page 14 item (I) The ballot summary does not disclose that complying with the Charter Amendment has a fiscal impact in excess of $2 billion dollars, including the value of the land and infrastructure, as well as costs and liabilities.

The entire document can be requested by emailing rickm@coj.net Rick Mullaney General Counsel for the City of Jacksonville

jandar

08-31-2006, 10:53 AM

In other words...

Lets spend 2 Billion to bring in 2 billion in 20 years or so.....

thelakelander

08-31-2006, 11:22 AM

So where does the extra $2 billion Clay states, come into play? Also, if it takes 20 years to recoup the 2 billion, I'd assume someone anticipates the base wouldn't be fully operational by 2011 (bringing in over a billion annually to the local economy/not including spin off private sector jobs), as stated in the BRAC requirements.

Jim

08-31-2006, 11:58 AM

Sounds like some people are comparing costs to tax revenue alone and not actual money being pumped into the economy. Isn't that a bit misleading in itself? You can't tell people that you're not including all the facts and figures and then not include them yourself (a generalization aimed at no one in particular).

This is why a fully fledged study is needed regarding the pros and cons of Cecil as a MJB and the pros and cons of Cecil as a Commerce Center instead of just the word of mouth by 'citizens with agendas'.

"Take my word. No, take MY word." I'm not taking either, I want the facts damnit and neither side is presenting ALL of them.

Of course if the Navy has excluded Cecil already the argument is lost upon itself and a commerce Center it shall be. It would be nice if the Navy would just say something instead of letting the citizens embattle each other and the city sueing its citizens.

Peyton, I know you read this (or pay someone to), call Jeb and have him call the DoD and get some answers. If the people find out that you planned on suing the citizens before confirming with the Navy they will still use Cecil, forget a 2nd term.

Diane Melendez

08-31-2006, 01:54 PM

Jim...It would be nice if the Navy would just say something instead of letting the citizens embattle each other and the city sueing its citizens.

Exactly Jim!

I have been asking why Peyton and the Govenor have not yet done so in earlier posts.

A couple or reasons come to mind.

One is that Jeb and Peyton already know the answer. Which is that the Navy has not actually made the decision themselves yet. Why ask if you already know that the Navy has not or will not confirm one way or another? As I have questioned in other posts, all it would take is a letter to the powers at be driving this decision,asking are you interested in Jacksonville or not? Or have you already made a decision or not? That would answer alot of questions and stop the bickering. Or would it?????

Imagine the scenero. If the answer is yes, they want to come back, then all hell will really cut loose. The westsiders and those opposed to the base will go into frantic overdrive, there would be panic in their communities and things would really start to go wild. Those wanting the base will be looking at the biggest carrot to come down the pike in a long while. They will take an even stronger stance knowing that the Navy wants to come here. Then the city will really be divided and the hostilities would go wild.

If the answer is that the Navy has not actually made a "firm" decision then there would still be the ability to persuade them one way or the other. That would be fuel on the fire of both sides. I can see the flames now. People would be at each others throats.

Now Jeb has said he wants the base but he takes no "visable" action to pursue it. Not even a letter, Why???? One reason is he is smarter than Peyton. He is keeping his position low key. He just continues to say, when he has the opportunity, that he wants the base in Florida and that he is dissapointed in Peytons position. He and GW nudge Peyton with an appointment to some committee or other. They know Peytons ego and hope this will sway him a bit. Jeb is thinking, why stir the pot from his end, especially if talks are already underway to get the base in Florida? (which they are, thats a fact) Jeb wants this base! John Peyton is just a fly in the soup to Jeb. He may be figuring, just let him drown in it. Which by the way he is.

Then there is the "Peyton" factor. We all know it well. Peyton can turn on a dime depending on how it affects him personally and his political aims. However this time he is more entrenched than ever. He is using the city to sue it's own citizens. He can't turn quite so easily, but if it is for National Security and the Navy demands it for such? Well then what will he say? He doesn't want Jacksonville to support the countries security? To say you don't support the country in any form, for a weak nuby politicial like Peyton would be political suicide.

We also recently "publically" learned that there is a woman that has a very high position in our city. She is from the Westside and a friend of Peyton. She is desperate that the base not come. Peytons friends are "very" important to him. Look how many he drug along with him to city hall and put on the payroll. They didn't know a thing about running a city, but he put them on board. Could this woman, a simple friend, have that much influence???? Well she is inside the system, and knows alot of things, maybe some very important things. Things that could be very damaging to Peyton if they were known. Could this be influencing him? Or are they just city hall buddies used to getting their way? I know some who read this would say, no way, even Peyton would not be driven this way. Actually, he would and has so many times it would make the head of the average tax payer spin.

So where does that put us? Back at the beginning. It depends on if they Navy wants to come back. They are not going to tell us unless someone in authority asks. Why haven't they asked? See above.

jandar

08-31-2006, 02:50 PM

Admirals have stated that Oceana is the base for them during meetings.

The Navy does not want Cecil back. Plain and simple.

Diane Melendez

08-31-2006, 04:18 PM

Jandar....The Navy does not want Cecil back. Plain and simple

Hello Jandar,

It is quite possible that the Navy does not want to come back. But if this is the case, one can only wonder why Peyton is going to the extreme length of fighting supporters in court and spending a chunk of taxpayers dollars doing it. Why waste our tax dollars if in fact the Navy does not want to come to Jacksonville? It would seem that it would help his lawsuit if he could indeed produce a "document" saying that the Navy doesn't want to come here anyway. It would be an Ace in the hole for him and his case. Why hasn't he thrown the Ace? If the Navy had already stated they were not coming why hold a referendum? The outcome would be of no importance.

I hear you, but there are still too many questions about the intent of the Navy. I also feel for you. This is so important to many people for many different reasons. I hope it works out in a way that will not cause lasting damage to the citizens.

AJCORDON

08-31-2006, 04:35 PM

Diane; a simplistic answer is that the Navy does not have the luxury of "deciding" the outcome of this issue, although the "recommendation"of top Navy brass weighs very heavy in the equation. The CNO (Chief of Naval Operations) has stated the Navy prefers Oceana as the East Coast MJB. The only reason this whole issue is still being tossed about is that the City of Virginia Beach has not fully complied with all the encroachment requirements, however, they have met 5 out of 6. A secondary training field was just opened in NC. Oceana isn't going to close.

Coach1976

08-31-2006, 04:43 PM

I think that the reason all this is happening is Jeb. Jeb the Warmonger, just like his brother, who wants to go out of office with another feather in his hat. He's like a big fat kid perched over his game of Battleship, moving the pieces around to his will and liking, meanwhile his wife is off writing bad checks, his son is arrested for public indecency and intoxication, and his daughter shoots up.
I agree with Diane that he has a lot to do with this, but I'm not sure he's as powerful as she gives him credit for... after all, those of us with younger siblings know what pests they can be. C'mon, some of us still hold grudges from when they broke our bike/ stole our shirt/ killed our pet hamster. Whatever. I doubt "W" bows down to Jebbos every little whim. The Navy has gone on record repeatedly stating that Oceana is the best place for them from a Nat'l Defense standpoint. But their voices have been drowned out by all the squealings from the Political Pork. They are sitting back right now, with their lawyers on retainer, waiting...
Meanwhile, Jeb is in the background trying to pull favors from people who know he will be but a memory in November, and are gauging whether it's worth it to put themselves out there for someone who says he has no further political aspirations...

If he runs for any higher offices, I'm moving to New Zealand.

Diane Melendez

08-31-2006, 05:29 PM

Do any Bush's live in New Zealand?

chazj1

08-31-2006, 09:35 PM

The reason that there is a lawsuit is because this particular referendum is illegal in its cause of action.

has anyone on this webpage actually read the lawsuit - the lawsuit is not just about the Navy or Cecil Field they are the reasons that the referendum was compiled but if you read the lawsuit it is about how the City of Jacksonville is governed. who can appropriate money. who has title to Cecil

There is a lot of debate about this subject and many pro-Cecil goingto the Navy are asking the question "what is the real impact we've heard about the jobs , we've heard about the cost what is the truth. well, I can tell you that many who signed the petition don't know for sure what the costs will be - that is partially what the challenge to this referendun is,the votejaacksonville people offer NO information on what it will cost the citizens of Jacksonville - the only fair ballot would contain those costs.

The lawsuit is wide in its scope of how this referendum "hides the ball" and does not have full disclosure and also tries to change the form of government in Jacksonville.

Before you respond to this post please read the lawsuit - email rickm@coj.net - that should be easy enough

It is also about how one should go about seeking a referendum, it must be truthful with full disclosure

RADIO TALK SHOW HOST

08-31-2006, 09:39 PM

Before you respond to this post please read the lawsuit - email rickm@coj.net - that should be easy enough

It is also about how one should go about seeking a referendum, it must be truthful with full disclosure

IF YOU CAN GET IT please post it here

chazj1

08-31-2006, 09:58 PM

Jimmy

08-31-2006, 11:04 PM

I don't think the Judge will allow this on the ballot as a non-binding straw vote. Our charter doesn't allow citizen-placed non-binding straw votes. The City Council could do this, but obviously has elected to not do so.

I've read the complaint for declaratory judgment. It's very well-written, given the time crunch. Since these are purely legal questions and there is little need for "evidence," I suspect that the Court will rule relatively quickly. I understand why some people will be upset if the Court rules as I suspect it will, but you can't violate the spirit, letter, and intent of the law and then just get away with it. The VoteJacksonville folks got people riled up over what will amount to nothing more than a legal footnote.

RADIO TALK SHOW HOST

08-31-2006, 11:16 PM

now listen to the interview I did with Russ metrojacksonville.com

WE CAN'T GIVE AWAY LAND WE don't own

Yeah, I know it is from the Betterwestside webpage so some of you will probably call it propaganda - if you don't believe it get your own copy directly from COJ Counsel Rick Mulaney rickm@coj.net

Enjoy the reading

http://www.betterwestside.com/CMS/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=56&expv=0&topic=443.0

thelakelander

09-01-2006, 12:37 AM

Yeah, I know it is from the Betterwestside webpage so some of you will probably call it propaganda - if you don't believe it get your own copy directly from COJ Counsel Rick Mulaney rickm@coj.net

Enjoy the reading

http://www.betterwestside.com/CMS/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=56&expv=0&topic=443.0

Playing Devils Advocate, as always, one could claim that Rick Mullaney's argument is written in a fashion that best serves his side's interest. Like Vote Jacksonville, there may be a tendency to add a little fluff to the truth to help achieve his desired goals.

Nevertheless, we will all find out next week. If the referendum dies, hopefully Westside residents and the city will recognize that they're being used by NEFBA and if it continues, the commerce center's ultimate potential will be severly limited by incompatible residential encroachment.

thelakelander

09-01-2006, 09:41 AM

Alex, I'm sick of the dribble coming from both sides. I want a real study and facts presented. Mullaney's position carries just as much weight and fluff as Ken Underwood's. Without a study, this whole debate is nothing more than a waste of everybody's time. I only want what's best for the region in the long term and if that means Naval base, so be it. If it means commerce center (without low wage warehouses and call centers), so be it. But without even attempting to gain the facts we'll never know. On top of that, its also clear that we (regular residents) have no control over this thing. Its either coming or not, so we'll have to roll with the punches.

Btw, do I really have to explain how the NEFBA benefits from their position? Isn't it evident by the amount of undeveloped land out their and there business model, which is to build homes on it (ex. Oakbridge, Dawsons Creek, Argyle)? Should I care about protecting someone's investment who purchased land for residential use in existing Cecil crash zones? Should they take precendent over the development of our largest industrial asset? Imo, Cecil first, homeowners and developers wanting to move into crash zones second.

chazj1

09-01-2006, 09:49 AM

chazj1

09-01-2006, 10:01 AM

Lakelander,

Why do you believe there is no difference between commercial air traffic and jetfighters taking off and landing every 3 minutes? - the decibel levels are not even close to the same and the frequency is also not close to the same

Do you know the difference between military use compatibility and commercial use compatibilty?

thelakelander

09-01-2006, 10:48 AM

Lakelander,

why do you think that commmercial aircraft usage and Jetfighters taking off and landing every 3 minutes is the same thing?

Do you understand the difference between Military use compatibility and commercial use compatibility?

It doesn't matter, whether the jets are commercial or jetfighters. I find something wrong with the principle of building homes in active airport crash zones. Doing such only puts us in the situations Cecil is beginning to face right now. Today its the Navy, tomorrow it will be UPS, Boeing or whatever entity that considers bringing a use to Cecil, that increases flight traffic and jet noise. This pattern has been played out countrywide for years.

thelakelander

09-01-2006, 12:51 PM

Alex, you're all over the map, but we'll have to agree to disagree. You're basically saying its okay for the city to suffer on its investment (Cecil as a commerce center) because developers and homeowners what to live under airport runways and in APZ zones. This particular issue has nothing to do with the Navy and current number or flights coming out of Cecil. It has everything to do with bad planning by COJ's planning department, developers looking to make a cheap buck off former cow pastures and homeowners buying larger homes for cheaper prices. They say you get what you pay for and this is a great example. Lets take Dawsons Creek. Its being constructed in Cecil's EXISTING commercial APZ 2 zone. Imo, the rest of the city shouldn't have to suffer (Cecil not meeting its potential affects the entire city) because of an individual's poor personal decision to buy or build a home in an existing crash zone, then complain when the possibility of air traffic increases at the nearby "already existing" airport.

chazj1

09-01-2006, 01:34 PM

I did not buy a house in an APZ or AICUZ zone, period

But it will be if the Navy comes back and that can be said for 1000's of homes.

What is wrong with buying a larger home for less money. There was NOOOO chance of Cecil becoming a Navy base again. Name one base in the USA that was closed and then summarily re-opened.

The first people to buy homes in a new area, whether that be Oakleaf, Pablo Bay, Arlington, Ortega, The Beaches, Queens Harbor etc pay less than those who buy later that is the reality of Real estate - if left to develop in this way - our homes would (and had until this pall was unleashed) appreciate - Lake,you seem to know the area - you know what is out near Cecil - there are thousands upon thousands of homes - it is not like its a couple of tracts - it is large scale communities - built and bought by those who wanted better for their money, and families

Again,maybe you should educate yourself as to the difference between commercial aviation and military.

Charles Hunter

09-01-2006, 02:05 PM

Although only indirectly related* to the CCC/CFNAS debate, the aerial pictures the DOT had at their River Crossing meeting (and again next Thursday at Cecil) are very recent (this Spring, I think one DOT-er said) and show the extent of homes near Cecil.

* if the Referendum passes, somehow the City is supposed to get FDOT to give up the land it already owns (and will start building on around the end of the year) for Branan Field-Chaffee Road. The Referendum calls for the City to [paraphrase] 'return all land in the former CFNAS to the USN'. In previous discussions here that has been dismissed, but if by "common sense" we can relieve the City of turning over this acreage - AS WILL BE REQUIRED BY THE AMENDED CHARTER, why not other land within the former NAS?

thelakelander

09-01-2006, 02:12 PM

I did not buy a house in an APZ or AICUZ zone, period

But it will be if the Navy comes back and that can be said for 1000's of homes.

By the way, do you have a map available showing this? It would really solidify this argument if we were able to get it posted.

What is wrong with buying a larger home for less money. There was NOOOO chance of Cecil becoming a Navy base again. Name one base in the USA that was closed and then summarily re-opened.

The first people to buy homes in a new area, whether that be Oakleaf, Pablo Bay, Arlington, Ortega, The Beaches, Queens Harbor etc pay less than those who buy later that is the reality of Real estate - if left to develop in this way - our homes would (and had until this pall was unleashed) appreciate - Lake,you seem to know the area - you know what is out near Cecil - there are thousands upon thousands of homes - it is not like its a couple of tracts - it is large scale communities - built and bought by those who wanted better for their money, and families

There's nothing wrong with buying affordable houses. They just shouldn't be built in existing airport crash zones, that's all.

Again,maybe you should educate yourself as to the difference between commercial aviation and military.

You guys are fairly new to the forum, but this is something that many here have debated even when this forum was a part of the urban planet forums last year. Over the course of these events I've educated myself to the best of my ability on this the entire Cecil issue. This includes taking personal tours of Cecil, Oakleaf and other new communities, research Oceana and VaBeach, and overlaying aerials and maps, including Oceana's APZ and AICUZs over Cecil's (considering the runways are the same size) since no one else was willing. From my research, the extended APZs don't affect nearly as much as nayayers claim and AICUZs don't affect most of Oaklead and Argyle. Nevertheless, without knowing actual flight paths, its impossible to claim with any validity if any homes east of Chaffee (that aren't already in noise zones) will be in 65db or higher noise zones. Unfortunately, it all leads back to one point. Nobody really knows what the affect will be and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle of the votejax and better westside arguments. This conclusion, will piss some, like Alex d. off, but its the one I'm standing by based on of what's been presented so far.

Diane Melendez

09-01-2006, 02:17 PM

We will all know a bit more on Sept 8th though. That should be interesting.

thelakelander

09-01-2006, 03:59 PM

alex d., if I didn't know any better, I'd say you're the type of guy who wouldn't invite me to dinner, if I were your next door neighbor. To sum everything up my personal opinion is based on the information presented so far. Anyway, just like your's, VoteJax, Better Westside and everyone else, its not Bible and freely open to second guessing and debating, as long as it remains respectful and not personal (we have the TU's forums for that).

That's the lovely thing about this being an open forum. Everyone is allowed to freely present their viewpoints in a respectful manner.

Coach1976

09-01-2006, 05:09 PM

Since Lake continues to blame us on the westside for buying homes near an airport and in existing crash/aicuz zones, let me tell you my stake in this:

On a lovely morning, which happened to be Superbowl Sunday, I toured the home I now live in. I came up from Ft. Lauderdale with my spouse and toddler to find a home with some land in an area with great schools. I remarked to the homeowner about all the small planes flying overhead. He explained that there was an airfield not too far away, and that it was busier than usual due to it being the Superbowl and such. I stayed about an hour, saw the planes, even one or two military.
I moved in April Fools Day.
Two months later, I got a knock on my front door. The news I got literally floored me. That "little airfield" was going to become the new home of the east coast master jet base.
Now, I had just bought a house for over 350k. I put 20k into it right away. I hadn't even finished unpacking. In fact, that very week I had gotten my shipment of wood flooring in. Well, I stopped unpacking and told the guy who was installing the floor to wait.
Then my spouse and I put every bit of our time and energy into researching AICUZ, Planning Department Documents, Maps, Jet Specifications, Health and EPA documents, Navy Documents, writing letters to any and every city/state/county official that we could find an email for. We put our business on hold. We've lost thousands upon thousands of dollars. We've spent thousands of hours of our time researching. We've sacrificed time we could have spent with our child, enjoying our new home.
And you know what really takes the cake? We bought in Clay County. No matter how hard we have fought, continue to fight, we don't even have a voice. Our commissioners are too busy covering up their scandals. They are too busy answering our emails with nursery rhymes (george a. bush). They refuse to even acknowledge their constituents' concerns with public forums, meanwhile they wrote letters on our behalf to bring the base here. 642 acres belong to our county, but where is our input?
Come to find out, two jets crashed in my neighborhood when Cecil was active. The swimming pools would ignite when you threw a match into them. My neighbors said that their gardens just started growing a few years ago-- it took years after the Navy left Cecil. I pulled my deed. Nowhere was there ANYTHING about an AICUZ or any other item relating to sound/crash zones. Come to find Clay had stopped enforcing any type of restrictions. My home was built in 2001, by the way. There are 550 more homes in my neighborhood, with the majority being built in the last five years.
I have no problem with the planes that fly now. Some are very loud. But they fly by and the next really loud one won't come for days. The blackhawks are loud, and fly really low. I actually think they're neat and wave to them. Doesn't bother me. A few times jets have flown over so low that I've nearly jumped under the coffee table. Sucks, but it's very rare... now, every three minutes? That's a different story.
I don't know if you've been in Foxmeadow, Lake, but if you'ld like to come by I would happily give you a tour. I'd even take you fishing on my rowboat (caught a seven pound bass in my lake in May) so you could experience a little piece of my heaven that I have been fighting so hard to save. So you have to understand why I disagree with you and I think that the homeowners actually come first in all this. It's really about our property rights, our dreams, our families. F*!@ the economic studies. We're people. And some of us haven't been treated that way by our elected officials. If it was the Southside, The Beaches, The Northside... everyone needs to see the big picture, and that is everyone has a right to the quality of life that they bought into. Those other parts of Jacksonville might not care because it won't negatively effect them to have the base in their backyard. But it's time for everyone to show that they have some humanity, some compassion. Our constitution begins, "We the people..." Why does it have to come down to "We the Westside" ?

Charles Hunter

09-01-2006, 05:25 PM

Good post, Coach
Lake, from your earlier comment, it sounds like you have read the City's legal challange to the referendum. Setting aside for a moment the Big Question of whether the Navy should come back or not, what do you think about the Complaint? If you were the VoteJacksonville lawyer (sometimes called an "advocate"), how would you defend against the Complaint? And please, don't claim "I Am Not A Lawyer" so I can't comment. The City's complaints against the ballot language are mostly common sense (like the City can't give to the DOD property it doesn't own, the City can't compell other governments to give up the lands they own, etc.). I don't think the Bar Association will come after you for offering a citizen's opinion about this.

thelakelander

09-01-2006, 05:36 PM

Sorry to hear about that Coach. Cecil, even in its commercial state, is much more than a little airfield. If there's one thing that's not debatable, its that Cecil and Whitehouse's air traffic will greatly increase as more industrial development takes place. Up to this point, success has been limited, but the whole purpose of the ideal behind investing in the commerce center was to take advantage of the major runways, which will end up dramatically increasing flight traffic, both commercial and military (whitehouse).

The governments of both Duval and Clay have dropped the ball, in regards to planning, probably because of greed in quickly increasing their tax bases, without thinking or caring about the long term effects of having incompatible land uses going up next to each other. Another city went this route decades ago (VaBeach) and because of that, this situation exists today.

Believe me, although I'm not 100% in favor of keeping it a commerce center and wish studies evaluating all the pros and cons would have been conducted, I do understand your viewpoint and respect it.

thelakelander

09-01-2006, 05:42 PM

Charles Hunter

09-01-2006, 06:06 PM

Happy Trails - be safe out there, the road is full of nutjobs!! (Present company excluded, of course!!)
Have a great week-end

thelakelander

09-02-2006, 12:40 AM

Happy Holiday weekend, as well.

All right, so the city’s suit gives some very important numbers. There are only 262 homes in the existing and extended APZ-2 crash zones. This number probably includes undeveloped home sites as well. By comparison, there are 2,200 Va Beach homes in Oceana’s APZ-1 and 50 in Cecil’s. If the Cecil AICUZ is extended, then only 1,862 homes are affected by the 65 db level noise factor. That’s a good number, but way less than the tens of thousands claimed by some. With this information in mind to answer a hypothetical question with a hypothetical answer, here goes:

1. Officially conduct studies
If I’m Underwood’s crew, the first thing I would do is conduct the studies, I’ve been talking about. These studies will give numbers estimated for bringing the Navy back to help fight and show up the city’s claims.

2. Torpedo COJ's credibility
I’d attempt to turn the tables on the city administration. As we all know, most of our top officials aren’t the sharpest knives in the drawer. This is the same group that gave us the Shipyards, Courthouse and First Timothy issues and violated its own cap, put in place by the voters. My team would dig deep into this administration to chip away its credibility thus weakening the validity of their entire argument in the process.

3. Play State Politics big-time
3. Obviously Underwood and Bush have discussed this issue before. It’s also well known that several state representatives and the governor want the base, as well as the Governor’s brother being the President of the US. Another fact is that all of the other entities owning Cecil deeds are divisions of the State government or require and compete for State funds. See the correlation?

My lawyers would work to get the state help us in approaching and dangling carrots to the other public entities, in return for turning over the Cecil deeds. For example, Clay how bad do you want that beltway? We (FDOT) maybe able to push most of its funding up by a decade or so, if the base were reinstated to help deal with the additional traffic coming from Cecil. All we need is your unbuildable 642 acres to help attract the base back. If not, Miami-Dade’s Palmetto Expressway is a more pressing concern so we may need to shift funding since your roadway is no longer a top priority and valuable to the state, without a base along the route.

Basically, my team would approach all parties, with the help of the Governor and State Representatives to secure letters of intent from the other agencies prior to the court case. If this can be successfully pulled off, it blows the water out of half of COJ’s argument.

4. Economic impact eliminates "Hidden" costs
I’d attempt to convince the Judge that the Navy coming to Cecil should be viewed in the same light as attracting multiple mega industrial players like UPS, Ford or GM to the commerce center to build massive assembly plants. The estimated annual economic impact and number of jobs created would easily trump anything the city invested in the property. This means the money spent on commerce center infrastructure and land should be considered as a part of an incentive package or necessary investment needed to attract a big dog that not only brings 31k jobs to Jax, but also strengthens and helps secure the future of several associated military institutions across the state of Florida. These numbers have also been in the local media for a year now and are currently running on TV, the radio and in the papers. All of this information is easily accessible to all, meaning every little detail doesn’t need to be on the referendum.

I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t even know if these type of tactics are legal or not, but if I'm Ken Underwood and my money is on the line, some kind of extensive effort like this would be the meat and potatoes of my counter argument.

The sum it up:

1. Attempt to gain the facts
2. Discredit COJ, prove leadership is out of touch with the local community
3. Work behind COJ's back to fulfill most of the BRAC requirements BEFORE the court case.
4. Challenge Mullaney’s definitions/understanding of the ballot question and city charter.

At this point, it would be up to the judge to decide.

Charles Hunter

09-02-2006, 09:21 AM

Lake, is this your response to the points in the City's law suit? Or should I be waiting for something else?

I don't mean that to sound as 'snarky' as it might on re-reading, just want to know if there will be more to address in responding to your response.

RADIO TALK SHOW HOST

09-02-2006, 10:32 AM

I would reword Alex,, I enjoy the right to be as nice as I WANT TO BE,I PUT LAWS RULES and A set of ethics in place so that even if there is a majority of pompous close minded unsympathic a-holes (not exactly the adjectives our forefathers had at their disposal) I don't invite them to make decisions much.

The fear of lawsuits from people who might get screwed in this IS THE SYSTEM WORKING and shouldn't be perceived as anything else.

I may be a caregiver and volunteer at the hospital, volunteer for the homeowners association to help neighbors maintain their investmenst, be lucky enough to have many friends but you are right. I dont invite pompous close minded unsympathic a-holes over for dinner much.

I'm extremely proud our constitution is kinda based on DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE DONE UNTO YOU

Jimmy

09-02-2006, 11:10 AM

Alex, here's the thing: Ennis is an amazing and passionate advocate of and for Jacksonville. He and I DO NOT AGREE AT ALL EVEN A LITTLE BIT about the Cecil issue. I don't want the Navy there, he says that he just wants a study, but I think deep-down he really does want the Navy there. We don't agree.

Otherwise, we agree on lots of things. I don't think he's an a-hole because we can't agree on one issue. I just think he doesn't have the proper perspective on this one issue. Really, dude, chill out. At this point there's only one opinion we need to worry about on this issue: The Honorable Bernard Nachman.

Coach1976

09-02-2006, 11:13 AM

My offer still stands, Lake. You're welcome to come by for some coffee. I don't think that you're an a-hole, I just think that you, like most of the people in our fine country, have become more about the bottom line and less about doing the right thing. Heck, even Walmart is waking up and is putting some of that money they stole from the small businessman and is putting it towards making the earth greener. I think there may be a ray or two of sunshine through the dark gray skies that have been covering America for a while (especially since W has been the prez). At some point misanthropy will morph into magnanimity, otherwise we're all doomed. Do you think it would change you a little as a person if you were fighting my fight? It has changed me in many ways. I'm a lot more bitter towards the government, a lot less naive, and a lot more compassionate towards all the people who have ever been involved in a grassroots effort. I also care a lot more about what happens on a local level, in all aspects. If a landfill threatens to go up in your backyard, Lake, I'll probably join the fight with you, because even ten miles away, you are my neighbor. I would understand your plight. There is the trickling down effect that most people are ignoring in this. More pollution which will effect the city as a whole, higher taxes which will effect the city as a whole, more people will be affected by the noise than is thought, and then there is the hostility that will exist between factions in this city. It's one big Pandora's Box.

thelakelander

09-02-2006, 11:52 AM

Wow, alex d. I head out of town and all hell breaks lose. Anyway, I'm not going to give you the pleasure of banning you. Instead I'm going to treat you with respect and hopefully you'll come around to doing the same. We're all old enough to not require babysitters.

Charles, I'll admit that the lawsuit questions are out of my expertise, which is urban planning and architecture. The best I can do to answer the lawsuit questions without taking a page to explain everything in detail, would be to hire a legal team to challenge the city's definitions/understanding of the ballot question and fight to keep it there. To best do this, I would assume that big time politicial playing and exposing the city's creditbility would have to be major parts of the plan.

As for my support for the seriously looking at returning the military, it hinges around me not believing the negatives of having the military at Cecil, outweighs the pros, based on the information presented so far. Imo, 50 homes in the APZ-1 and 262 in the APZ-2 are managable numbers, given the estimated overall economic impact for the entire region. Even the +1,800 homes in the military AICUZ is still well below the threats of tens of thousands of homes having to be rebuilt. This means most of the Westside (all of Argyle and most of Oakleaf) must be outside of these areas. These are some of the major reasons why I wanted a study to accurately get all info out and to have a debate with everything on the table.

However, I also agree that the Cecil will most likely remain a commerce center, which is why I'm pushing for city officials and westsiders to plan a little better to protect the base's assets to help it reach its best potential. Imo, this means restricting residential growth to certain areas and going after high paying companies and jobs, not low wage distribution centers.

In closing, I also understand Westsider's concerns and respect them for fighting in what the believe. That's why you'll never see me stoop down to name calling and mudslinging.

thelakelander

09-02-2006, 11:53 AM

Diane Melendez

09-02-2006, 11:57 AM

Hey there Alex.

What I read and hear coming through loud and clear is a hugh amount of anger and frustration over this Cecil issue and in some cases a great deal of lashing out has been the result of those feelings.

I wanted to tell you, Coach and all the others that are worried sick on the westside that I think it is so unfortunate that this issue has hit everyone
quite literally where they live! Having one's home and dreams threatened in America has to be one of the biggest slaps in the face government can give a person or community. I have been thinking about alot of Jacksonvilles less financially capable citizens, who have been delivered this same blow. I have been at more than one City Council meeting and watched people whose homes "were" located in trailer parks plead to save them. The future of their homes was in the hands of our government, in this case city legislators. They lost.

In this instance, it has been government action, inaction and missteps that have brought Jacksonville to this point. A lack of competent leadership at the local level and no documented clarification from state or national levels has pushed this entire situation past the breaking point. Anger has boiled over.

The situation here which also effects other counties, stepped off the platform
as incompetent leadership in the form of Mayor John Peyton. He ran ahead full speed with an effort to get the base brought "back" to Jacksonville. The initial frantic push, complete with emergency meetings was initiated by Mr. Peyton himself. He started the whole hubbub when he launched the effort without doing his homework, demanding competent facts to even begin such an undertaking. What is amazing is that he changed direction on this midstream and then "loudly" voiced the position that he did not want the base here. Somehow he and his bunch have managed to take the focus off themselves and let it become a free for all within the community.

Westsiders should not forget who started this latest round of Cecil hostilities and that is John Peyton. He is where the frustrations and hurt feelings should be directed. He is not your friend in this, he is only saving his "hiney".

You don't have to chill out, but it would be great if you would take those feelings of injustice and funnel them where they will have the most impact.
Remind the Mayor that you and other citizens remember he brought the idea home. Demand that he get a statement from the Navy declaring they do not wish to return. If he hasn't done so to date, demand to know why. Remind the Mayor again that you and others are mad as hell. Call, email and write Jeb Bush. Let him know how you feel and that you don't want the base. Write the Navy and the powers that drive them and tell them where you live and that you feel the base could threaten your physical wellbeing.

In short, don't be drawn in by political manipulations and vent your anger in ways that will not accomplish much. Ennis (Lake), is not in anyway responsible for the position you are in. Neither can he decide if the Navy returns or not. I respect his right to voice his opinion. I have not seen him call you names and would hope you will not disrespect his right to share his view and position here. When you vent on him or other citizens, Peyton and the politicians get away "scott free" which is how they intend it to be. I know you are smarter than they think you are. Show them and let the government politicians have it. Lake is a good guy and I think you are a great person as well, just someone who is angry and hurt. Lake is not the reason for the situation now being discussed. John Peyton is.

Diane Melendez

09-02-2006, 12:13 PM

I gotcha DP. I knew what you were saying and agree completely. That is what I was trying to impart. Jumping on Lake and sniping at other posters will accomplish little save hurt feelings and misunderstandings. I was saying take the frustration and direct it toward the individuals controlling this thing at the government level. When it comes to the Government then let's "not chill" and make them accountable. I'm with ya DP!

02Roadking

09-02-2006, 01:32 PM

As a good place to live and raise a family and good place for jobs in the existing retail, commercial, office and warehouse areas with a bright future in all these areas. I didnt make this stuff up. This is on the Jacksonville aviation authority, Southwest citizens planning advisory committee, westside business leaders association handbook. This is the direction the city chose to go. Thousands bought into it.

It must be true. Says so right here in the "Handbook" ;)

Diane Melendez

09-02-2006, 06:03 PM

alex d....Why? Because the city chose to move in a direction when their hand was moved by the leaving of the navy. That move was to sell the land to developers and present the area as they continue to today. As a good place to live and raise a family and good place for jobs in the existing retail, commercial, office and warehouse areas with a bright future in all these areas.

alex, you are absolutely correct that the city authorized the residential developements and started offering up Cecil for commercial use. This is fact. This fact makes it all the more unbelievable that city having headed in that direction was the very same entity, through John Peyton, that tried to derail the plan completely.

I would imagine most of the promoting of great family living etc, was voiced by those developing the area, building homes etc. That is a major part of a successful development. They have to sell it as snug, happy and safe to get people to buy in. In this way they may have contributed to the confusion now being felt by homeowners.

The development of many of the residential and supporting commercial areas came as a result of individual developers purchasing the land and then asking the City for permission to build their developments where they did. By authorizing these developments the city became culpable, morally if in no other way, in my view.

When all this began there was no grand plan, just generalizations. (you planners out there let me know if I am accurate about this). It was another situation where developers led the way and the city tagged along. If the city had been paying attention, or council representatives had been watching more closely, someone should have addressed this through ordinance or another measure. The fact that development was going on in areas that were part of exisiting flight paths should have not gone unanswered or ignored.

Even commercial development at Cecil does not mean these developed areas will not be in the flight path of commercial aircraft associated with business that may locate in Cecil.

I think making generalized statements using "westsiders" actually came as a result of those living in your area like the Westside Business Leaders Association. They used "Westside" to identify who they are, as does media when speaking of the area. This makes sense as no one could expect each and every individual on the westside to be mentioned by name. It is a bit oversensative in my view to take umbridge or be insulted by being referred to as a westsider. When we reach that level of sensativity we need to stop and think about where our feelings are leading us and if our emotions have us by the ears.

As I stated in the previous post, the sanctity and safety of our homes is paramount to us as individuals and Americans. That sanctity can be threatened in a number of ways, hurricanes, fire, falling trees, foreclosure, flood and many more causes beyond these. Your's is currently being threatened by a potential relocation of the Navy. That has got to be horrifying and I think most of us realize that.

My sister-in-law lost her home to earthquake, dear friends lost theirs to fire and some of my own family members lost theirs to Katrina as did several hundred thousand other individuals. What I am saying is you are not alone in this fear and people care. The difference is that you can fight ahead of time to save yours. Just take care and try not to place blame where it does not belong. We get that it is personal, but no one on MetJax is "personally" responsible for this situation. However, John Peyton and his advisors are.

chazj1

09-02-2006, 07:37 PM

I believe that one thing you people miss is that the APZ and Aicuz numbers only reflect those houses in DUVAL county - The homes in Clay county go UNACCOUNTED for - I also believe that the number of homes in Duval county are woefully under counted.

thelakelander

09-03-2006, 07:26 AM

Remember chazj1, those numbers are from the BRAC, who claims they studied it themselves not incompetent COJ. APZ's and AICUZs deal directly with the runways, and flight paths, not county lines.

Contrary to some reports, the Commission evaluated Cecil Field's suitability by carefully examining satellite imagery, conducting several extensive base visits and aerial tours, by commissioners and staff, as well as FAA analysis conducted with our staff experts. The Commission was well aware there was, and is, some minor encroachment at Cecil Field.

According to our analysis, there are fewer than 50 homes in Cecil Field's Alear Zones and Accident Potential Zones (APZ-1) (highest risk areas closest to aircraft landing and takeoff paths). Using Navy population estimates for Virginia Beach as reported in the F/A-18 E/F (Super Hornet) Final Environmental Impact Statement and the 2000 Census Bureau data for Virginia Beach, there are more than 2200 homes in Virginia Beach located within the highest risk areas closest to aircraft landing and takeoff paths, designated Clear Zones and Accident Potential Zones, PAZ-1. In short, NAS Oceana has well over 40 times the level of encraochment as Cecil Field in the highest risk zones.

www.brac.gov/docs/Cecil-Oceana_OpEd_FINAL_18Oct2005.pdf

Charles Hunter

09-03-2006, 08:51 PM

Well, Lake, the Cecil Field folks are probably glad you aren't their attorney for the upcoming hearing. Your responses were interesting political strategy, but don't address any of the points in the Mullaney suit. The State Card is interesting, but they only have a few days to 'play' it. Regarding the DOT using extension / completion of Branan Field-Chaffee as a bargaining chip - from what they said at the public meeting the other night, DOT doesn't have money for ANY part of the road, beyond what they are going to start building later this year. I don't know that Turnpike can afford to play those games, since they have to preserve their bond ratings. In fact, the JAA and JEA boards* may be reluctant to go along, as they have to keep the finance and bond markets happy. Just giving up property and capital improvements worth millions (wastewater plant at $52M), and thousands of acres of land (>6000 and >300 for JAA and JEA), might not help their respective ratings.
The legal mumbo-jumbo about "sham" referendum and all that? Who knows? That may be the avenue for the supporters of conversion to follow.

* Both the JAA and JEA have boards made up of, I think, 7 members, appointed for both political and business reasons. I don't think a directive from the Governor would sway them. Also, they would have to hold special called meetings before the court hearing (later this week) to meet your timeline.

thelakelander

09-04-2006, 12:12 AM

No doubt, I could do a great land plan for Cecil to eliminate warehouses and future residential encroachment, but I'll gladly leave the legal mumbo jumbo to the attorneys. I;m sure both parties fill pretty good about their chances. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Charles Hunter

09-04-2006, 11:35 AM

That's why they are lawyers, and we are not - they enjoy that stuff, and (hopefully for both sides) know their stuff. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Coach1976

09-04-2006, 12:39 PM

Is anyone going to the courthouse on Friday to witness the ruling?

Jimmy

09-05-2006, 05:21 PM

Some of us are lawyers, and I know I'll try to be there on Friday to see how things go down. However, it's highly unlikely that a ruling will issue immediately from the bench. In fact, I would put money on no ruling until next week.

Charles Hunter

09-05-2006, 09:07 PM

In the City's Complaint, they ask for a ruling by Sept. 11, so they will have time to print ballots. That only gives the Judge the weekend to deliberate, if he intends to meet the City's requested deadline. If he doesn't, and the longer he takes, the worse position it puts the Supervisor of Elections, in preparing ballots.
This is especially crucial for absentee ballots.

Diane Melendez

09-07-2006, 01:59 PM

Well the court date is tomorrow. Jimmy, RG, what do you think will happen with the suit tomorrow? Or any of you legal eagles out there for that matter.

Diane Melendez

09-08-2006, 04:40 PM

The latest is that the referendum issue is in the hands of the judge who says he should have a ruling by the end of next week.

Coach1976

09-08-2006, 04:43 PM

I left the courtroom today just before Ron Barton was being called as a witness. The hearing will go on longer today, and will reconvene tomorrow morning. Wow, I didn't think they would carry on into the weekend.

Jimmy

09-08-2006, 04:48 PM

I only watched the opening statements. I could pretty much tell where things were going from there... Do you know what time court will convene in the morning? Saturday court is very, very rare in civil matters.

thelakelander

09-08-2006, 04:52 PM

What was Vote Jacksonville's response to the city's allegations?

Diane Melendez

09-08-2006, 05:05 PM

I do not know the particulars but according to one of their members, their position is that nothing has changed since when the Mayor and City Council initially came out in support of getting the base back.

There was evidence presented by the city addressing the potential costs to the taxpayers. I do not know all the legalities surrounding the situation, but was surprised that there was so much discussion of "potential" costs etc. I thought the issue before the judge was whether or not the referendum should go on the ballot, not the ramifications of a yes or no vote. Maybe some of the other members who can answer this better than myself can give more clarity.

02Roadking

09-08-2006, 05:26 PM

Legally be put to referendom the way it had been written, is my understanding

Jimmy

09-08-2006, 05:37 PM

The central argument is over whether or not the ballot language is misleading. The city argues that it is and is therefore unconstitutional. VJ is saying that everything must have been possible, and therefore not misleading, because of all the steps taken by the COJ and others in 2005 to get the base back.

RM is arguing that "the whole world has changed" since 2005, meaning costs have risen and independent bodies corporate not under COJ control (Clay county, JAA, JEA, FCCJ) have left the 2005 coalition to bring back the base. So, since the world changed -- which VJ knows -- they should have placed info about the new reality in their petition and in the ballot summary.

All the new information about the rising costs, the new political realities, and the impossibility of meeting the BRAC 12/31/06 deadline is coming in as a way of showing that petition-signers were duped and VJ is now trying to dupe the electorate.

Diane Melendez

09-08-2006, 05:42 PM

Channel 4 is saying the issue is now in the hands of the judge. There was no discussion of continuing arguments tomorrow. I wonder if they wrapped up today?

Jimmy

09-08-2006, 05:44 PM

They may well have. It's possible they pushed on through. Wish I could hear it from someone who stayed in the courtroom until the end...

Diane Melendez

09-08-2006, 06:00 PM

Found this dated yesterday while looking for information on todays hearing. Thought you guys may be interested. I have been pointing to Bush support for this as a drive behind the effort. His words seem to give creedance to my take on his involvement and support.

Gov. Jeb Bush Inspires Coalition to Press Forward on Cecil Field Drive

JACKSONVILLE, Fla., Sept. 1 /PRNewswire/ -- Gov. Jeb Bush visited
Jacksonville yesterday, taking a moment to wish the VoteJacksonville.com
campaign luck in the continuing campaign to allow Jacksonville voters to
vote on a referendum to return a U.S. Navy Master Jet Base to Cecil Field.
"The governor continues to encourage our efforts and wished us good
luck, and we had a conversation in which we briefly discussed our chances
of success," said VoteJacksonville.com co-founder and former Navy pilot Ken
Underwood. "Of course, the governor has consistently stated that this is an
issue to be determined by local politics, and we look forward to his
continued support once this issue has been determined by the voters of
Jacksonville."
Representatives of U.S. Congressman Ander Crenshaw were also on hand to
wish Vote Jacksonville good luck. "If Jacksonville and the state of Florida
meet the requirements of the BRAC law, the master jet base will move to
Cecil Field," Crenshaw said. "I think the voters ought to be able to vote
on this issue."
Thirty-eight thousand Jacksonville voters signed a petition over a
three- week period in July to place the referendum on the November ballot,
but the city has sued to block the vote. According to a University of West
Florida Study, returning the Navy to Cecil Field will create over 31,000
well-paying jobs and boost the area's economy by $2.6 billion a year.
While returning the Navy to Cecil Field would certainly have a
tremendous economic impact for the region, the Cecil Field question is an
even more important from a national perspective, said Capt. David Van Saun,
former commander of Mayport Naval Base and senior team leader to the 2005
Base Realignment and Closure Commission.
"Cecil Field is important because it has the best facilities in the
world to train pilots," said Van Saun, who is also a co-founder of the
VoteJacksonville.com coalition. "It is in all our interests, as Americans,
that our pilots receive the best possible training."

02Roadking

09-08-2006, 06:13 PM

CBS47 says they will be back at court @930AM Saturday

Charles Hunter

09-08-2006, 10:25 PM

First Coast News (http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=64414) seems to confirm a Saturday session. I couldn't find anything about it on "The Local News" site (WJXT)

Jimmy

09-09-2006, 12:00 AM

My understanding is that Judge Nachman will gavel the trial back into session in courtroom 6 at 9:30 a.m. on Saturday.

Coach1976

09-09-2006, 09:00 AM

Jimmy,
Was that you sitting in the back of the courtroom in the last row? I was going to introduce myself, but you left during the first recess.

Jimmy

09-09-2006, 09:01 AM

That was me. I had a pretty slammed day Friday. I think I'll head back downtown this morning and take in some more of proceedings.

Coach1976

09-09-2006, 11:14 AM

Fantastic. Let us know how that goes. I have a legal question for you (or anyone else with a legal background):
Some derrogatories against Ken Underwood were filed by the city. What does this mean in legalese? Can he get in trouble for this? What kind of penalties can be issued, if any?
Also, from my own observances yesterday, which I think you left too early to witness:
It seemed the VoteJax legal team used wording repeatedly that led me (and many others that were there) to believe that they were trying to prove that the Mayor lied under oath at the BRAC hearing last August. It seems that they want to hold him in contempt and show he perjured himself. It is some of our opinions that the VoteJax group will use the testimony from the mayor's team (which is now documented in this court case) to defame his character and will then introduce their own mayoral candidate.
Thoughts?:confused:

thelakelander

09-09-2006, 11:51 AM

I think a couple of you guys have mentioned this as a possibility before, but that would be an interesting turn of events if it eventually ends that way.

Diane Melendez

09-09-2006, 12:22 PM

Well since Peyton lies all the damn time it would be sweet if he was called out on it in a way that made a difference, no matter what the issue.

Coach1976

09-09-2006, 12:46 PM

I wonder if he would say that he testified based on the information that was given to him. If he tries to pass the buck, I could see the matter going to court to depose the Planning Dept and other state/city departments. If the mayor were to be brought up on perjury charges, then the governor would also stand to be accused. After all, he was standing beside the Mayor through the whole beginning part of the process- which is the part that has accuracy of testimony in question. It really makes me wonder if that isn't why two things have occurred:
1. The President nominated the mayor to serve a six-year term on the board of trustees of the Harry S Truman Scholarship Foundation (keep Jeb's name out of any legal issues re: Cecil and be the fall guy and I will see to it that your career doesn't completely end up in the crapper).
2. Jebbo has backed off BIG TIME recently from the master jet base idea and is now endorsing the commerce center to the consortium of aviation manufacturers which includes L-3 Communications Integrated Systems, Alenia North America Inc. and Boeing Integrated Defense Systems. http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:sbJKuEvC9CUJ:www.jaa.aero/as/feature_detail.asp%3Fid%3D216%26archive%3Dcurrent+ jeb+bush+jet+manufacturing+cecil&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

Adam Hollingsworth did a MARVELOUS job of covering the mayor's @$$, claiming that due diligience was done after the fact because they only had a 30-day window to do due diligence before going before BRAC. Hollingsworth DID bring up all the homes/schools/churches/businesses that lie in the APZ or AICUZ that they were unaware of back then (sure!) and that have been built in the past year or are slated to be built, and also the fact that there was a huge backlash from local citizens when they returned from Louisiana (where the BRAC hearing was held). Hollingsworth said that the lawsuits from local citizens would be justified, and that there would be many.

Coach1976

09-09-2006, 12:46 PM

Jimmy

09-09-2006, 01:46 PM

Just some observations. Coach, I think you may be talking about interrogatories. These are basically a deposition in written form. The city propounded (sent) lots of interrogatories to Underwood to nail down his position on many questions of fact. Mr. Mullaney used some of those interrogatories today while conducting a hostile direct examination of Underwood. There's no penalty per se -- it's just a way to "trap" him with his own prior testimony.

I stayed for the morning session. VJ is focusing very heavily on the Vystar property. Their legal theory remains that only Vystar stands in the way of Cecil Field's return. Mr. Page, head of the eminent domain section of the OGC laid out the time-line that would be necessary to take the Vystar property. Actually, importantly, he said that it would not be possible for COJ to take Vystar's property anyway, since COJ can only take for a county or municipal purpose. A Navy base is a federal purpose. And even if we could condemn the Vystar property and take it through eminent domain, under the most advantageous scenario for VJ, the time-line is nearly two months. So, there'd be no time for COJ to do this after the November election and meet BRAC's requirement. Which, remember: it's not even possible for COJ to take this land for US purposes. VJ's counter to all of this is that we can offer to buy the Vystar land. Which is a great deal of speculation on their part, as Vystar has given no indication that they would sell.

Micky Miller did an outstanding job on the witness stand also. He pointed out that no money has been appropriated by COJ in the last, current, or next budget year to meet BRAC requirements. He said the city would have to borrow any funds. Anything above $50M would send our bond rating into the toilet and cause us to pay much higher interest. Since JAA is now saying they want no less than $1.25B for their share of Cecil, and COJ would be responsible for making those land acquisitions under the charter amendment, Miller testified that we would see a very significant rise in local taxes in order to finance anything in excess of $150M in BRAC-related expenditures. Since the testimony showed it would cost $28M alone to purchase additional undeveloped land just to mitigate the loss of the parklands, you can see that $50M for COJ's share of the whole BRAC process was flawed to begin with.

I think my favorite part of the morning was when Underwood was on the stand. Two gems stand out. Underwood's counsel nearly threw a fit when emails between Underwood and Jeb Bush were allowed into evidence. These showed that Underwood knew very well that before the state would commit any more time or money to Cecil, Jacksonville would have to pony up. This puts the lie to the misleading ballot which seems to indicate no costs to COJ, but only to the state. He knew Jeb's position before he drafted the petition and ballot summary, etc. Counsel for VJ wanted these public records excluded as hearsay. Any 1st year law student knows that there's a clear exception from hearsay exclusion for 1) business records kept in the normal course of business and 2) PUBLIC RECORDS. The most priceless moment of this exchange was when Judge Nachman read the bottom of Jeb's email -- like all public official's emails -- the disclaimer that it was a public record under "Florida's very broad public records laws." Priceless.

The second standout from Underwood's testimony came when he was being cross examined by his counsel. The Judge stopped the proceedings and held a side-bar. He admonished the defense counsel to stop trying to use Underwood's testimony to further the public relations campaign. Underwood was attempting to testify to what Peyton said were his reasons for reversing course on Cecil. This is classic hearsay -- an out of court statement (of VERY questionable validity) -- being offered to prove the matter asserted. Had VJ wanted Peyton to testify, they could have compelled his testimony with a subpoena. Judge Nachman was not interested in the political and public policy stuff. He's trying to narrow the scope to the question of the ballot's legality.

As for Peyton's perjury or not, that's a non-issue to this trial. If defense counsel is trying to implicate Peyton, they're doing so to distract from their actual case (might not be a bad idea with their shaky case). A grand jury would have to be convened to look at any evidence of perjury and that criminal proceeding would not be a part of this COJ v. VJ case.

VJ is a largely republican effort. Very largely considering Underwood's ties to the republican party and the fact that he's the only money in VJ at this time. If the big state republicans want to start throwing money at defeating all of our COJ republicans, (Peyton, Hyde, Corrigan, Daniels) then that would be a politically interesting thing to see. I don't see it happening, however. Even Jeb is backing away from NAS Cecil.

But, as a political scientist and someone who is paying attention... well, there's one leading republican leader in this city who I could see benefiting from this if the VJ republicans get into some kind of threatening stance to Peyton. This is fun so let's play it like this. Name a republican city leader who is: 1) In favor of NAS Cecil (by his recent council vote), 2) Has the ability to send shockwaves through this city's racial and political landscape if he had the money and backing to challenge the Mayor. Fascinating when you consider the possibilities.

Edit to add: I'm talking about Art Graham. But if you're reading this, you probably knew that...

Claude91098

09-14-2006, 08:20 PM

Jacksonville population = 1,000,000,000+ the last time I checked.

IF Cecil goes to a vote, what do any of you think the results will be?

Approximately 8,000 against...bitterly against...up against over 992,000 other citizens that may vote either way. This reminds me of the commercial for Sprint when the attorney "objects" and the judge says, "I'll BET you do!"

(Thanks Russ! I missed that typo..!) ;-)

Jimmy

09-14-2006, 08:38 PM

You have to consider turnout. We have just shy of 535,000 registered voters in Duval County. It's not a presidential election and that hits turnout pretty hard. Let's be liberal (always!) and say we get 60% turnout, which would be higher than the last mid-term election by about 5%. So, maybe 321,000 ballots are cast and counted. About 10% won't vote on ballot questions historically. So, knock out another 32,100 votes from people who only vote for candidates. We're down to 288,900. Past this point, I have nothing scientific to offer you. What I will tell you is that the emotion will be stronger on the side against the referendum. People actually living and working under the potential ACUIZ and APZ will be making their case much stronger than will the VJ people. They'll be talking to their coworkers and friends around the county. The common person on the street will be leaning toward voting no. If the patriotism angle is promoted by VJ (which is a fallacy), that could sway support toward VJ amongst Joe Sixpack.

It's a tough question with a lot of pitfalls for both sides. I wish we could get the ruling from the Circuit Court. I would like all of this to be academic.

Russ Stalvey

09-14-2006, 08:40 PM

Jacksonville population = 1,000,000,000+ the last time I checked.

IF Cecil goes to a vote, what do any of you think the results will be?

Approximately 8,000 against...bitterly against...up against over 992,000,000 other citizens that may vote either way. This reminds me of the commercial for Sprint when the attorney "objects" and the judge says, "I'll BET you do!"

Hmmmmmmm.

Claude ya might want to knock some zeroes off those numbers..you know....the big ones...you wouldn't want to look foolish or anything....

AJCORDON

09-14-2006, 09:05 PM

:p It is academic, the Navy doesn't want Cecil.

"The Navy has gone on record during BRAC process and said 'We don't want to be in Jacksonville, we want to be at Oceana.' And for that reason, the case is closed."

Jimmy

09-14-2006, 09:06 PM

Good point, Mr. Cordon. That keeps getting lost from my thinking.

chazj1

09-14-2006, 09:54 PM

As I recall, the last question asked by Judge Nachman was -and I paraphrase - Even if the referendum were to be voted in, couldn't the City Council pass a resolution the next day to make the referendum null and void?

I think that the Mayor, the City Council and the Chamber of Commerce realizes that bringing the Navy back to Cecil would cause an undo fiscal tragedy to the city of Jacksonville, taxes would increase, bond ratings would fall (due to the astronomical costs of the lawsuits), the city would lose a billion dollar asset having to be replaced (the JAA’s estimated cost of financing new runways, which would be vital for the economic future of Jax)

The mayor is loath to admit his original mistake - the city council and the chamber of commerce would like this ALL to go away via a ruling by the Judge - but in the end because the situation makes NO fiscal sense they will have to mount a costly campaign that stops the pursuit of the Navy in the end.

The playing out of this entire tragedy will end up being a footnote in the history of Jacksonville. It will end up being a watershed episode, the ending of the good ole’ boy network of politics and greed in this town. Whichever way it ends it if the good ole’ boys lose and Cecil remains a commerce or if the good ole boys win and the city is fiscally bankrupt politics in this town will change forever.

Diane Melendez

09-15-2006, 01:30 AM

Isn't some sort of ruling due later today on the referendum question?

Claude91098

09-15-2006, 08:37 AM

Hmmmmmmm.

Claude ya might want to knock some zeroes off those numbers..you know....the big ones...you wouldn't want to look foolish or anything....

I must admit Russ, I was just stirring the pot some, however I didn't allow for children etc. As I recall there was this contest a few years back, (a lot of years back), when a young man was designated Jacksonville's "1 millionth citizen". The overall population number is closer to correct than not.:)

The registered voter number mentioned in the next post by Jimmy was probably more accurate.:)

I take it your among the anti-Cecil group. I'm not for nor against it since, as it's been pointed out in a venomous way elsewhere, that it won't effect my property or lifestyle.;)

But looking back just now, I see your point...I shoould have said 992,000 and it is 992 million...oophs...a typo!:(

Claude91098

09-15-2006, 08:42 AM

If the Navy is SOOOOO Adamant AGAINST coming back to Cecil...What is all the hoopla about anyway? The entire city could vote FOR it to return, march on Tallahassee AND Washington and it STILL wouldn't happen. If the FACTS really are that the Navy doesn't want to return to Cecil, then WHY are SOOOO MANY spending SOOOO much time and money to mount this effort to "block" it? Could there be MORE to this than people know, or want to know? :-/

chazj1

09-15-2006, 10:11 AM

I know what Bill Gay's motivation was and is - I don't believe for one second that he is not still pushing for the return of the Navy to Cecil - that one was easy MONEY - he hoped that his contracting company would benefit from re-tooling Cecil.

We are still trying to figure out Ken Underwoods motivation. Does anyone believe that it is out of some patriotic duty? or for the good of Jacksonville? - where he doesn't even live - My guess is that it is some type of political extortion (did you read the TU today it read to me like he was threatening the Mayor and City Council not to commit "Political Suicide") - Regardless of the outcome - Underwood has made himself into a political force in this town - THE NEW GOOD OLE' BOY

Jim

09-15-2006, 10:15 AM

This is why I'm pissed at Peyton. Why doesn't this man just ask the Navy for a public statement instead of letting his citizens go at each others throats and even suing them on the citys behalf?

He could end the entire debate and all the issues it carries with a few simple phone calls.

Russ Stalvey

09-15-2006, 02:28 PM

The Navy could come out and say publicly that they do not want to come to Cecil as a master jet base....wait a minute....they already have.

The reality is that the Navy did not have a choice in this. The 2005 BRAC had authority over the Navy, the President signed it and Congress passed it into law. The Navy did not have the authority to say "we don't care what you say....we ain't comin'". If the City of Jacksonville had somehow accomplished a miracle and fulfilled what it had to do..and the State too...the Navy would have had to come here.....period. The only way for the Navy not to have to come here was failure of any of the required actions for the State of Florida (and COJ) once VB failed its part. It would have done the Mayor no good to ask, and the Navy to do it, even if he did ask....these actions by BRAC were binding by Federal law once the parties complied.

I hope that now it is all a moot point. But we are not resting until 11:59 p.m. on 12/31/2006.

Diane Melendez

09-15-2006, 02:40 PM

I wish someone would come up with a "recently" dated statement from the Navy in fact proving that the Navy does not want Cecil period. I think a recent dated and signed document is very much needed to put this all to rest.

Russ Stalvey..The Navy could come out and say publicly that they do not want to come to Cecil as a master jet base....wait a minute....they already have.

Just for clarification Russ, you stated that the Navy said they do not want to come to Cecil as a "master jet base". If that is the case, it does not exclude the Navy's return for another use. Shouldn't it be that the Navy does not want Cecil period in any shape manner or form?

Unless someone comes up with a document stating this in it's entirety, there are still open doors.

Russ Stalvey

09-15-2006, 03:22 PM

Diane, once this whole thing got into the political phase (was it ever not in it) the Navy got quiet. The last comments from the Navy were from the CNO on board the USS Kennedy last October. Those words were pretty specific in what his view on the subject was....and those words were well publicized on our website.

With respect to the possibility of the Navy coming back in some other capacity? Not sure if you're understanding just what this is all about Diane, or, perhaps I am a little dim and do not understand your question (which is the more likely situation here). This whole issue centers around the BRAC order #193. That is all. It is very specific as to what actions are to be taken and to what capacity Cecil would fill in that order for the Navy. However the Navy would have some descretion to include what it felt would be needed to support a MJB. That order even specifies what parts of Oceana would be transfered and the title of that order states that a Master Jet base would move to Cecil (see txt below) . The Navy could not come here in any other capacity unless outside that BRAC order AND they wished to acquire the land (either thorugh purshase or eminent domain) and fund what ever move they wished to fill that new role at cecil. The document you need to read is the Final BRAC order #193....I am not sure I understand what other doors are still open.....unless I am not clued in on something and for that I apologize for my extreme ignorance.

The text on what would have been moved to jacksonville follows from the BRAC order 193:

"the units and functions that shall relocate to Cecil Field will include but are not limited to all of the
Navy F/A-18 strike fighter wings, aviation operations and support schools, maintenance support, training, and any
other additional support activities the Navy deems necessary and appropriate to support the operations of the Master Jet Base"

Diane Melendez

09-15-2006, 03:41 PM

I was referring to what I highlighted in my last post, which was your statement that spoke directly to the issue of a master jet base and the Navy not wanting it here. I was not referring to the BRAC order #193 in it's entirety. I was suggesting that a recently signed and dated statement from the Navy, explaining their position on it's relationship or nonrelationship with Cecil, would be the best thing we could have to put this issue to bed, once and for all.

Russ Stalvey

09-15-2006, 03:45 PM

Diane, I must refer you to post #128. Even if the Navy were to do that, which it would not, it would do no good. They have to follow the law like everyone else.

With respect to my inclusion of the 193 stuff. I felt that your comment about the Navy could use Cecil for some other purpose needed to be addressed.....it could not with respect to the contraints of order 193

Diane Melendez

09-15-2006, 03:53 PM

Well Russ, you are absolutely correct. The law is the bottom line and I agree, no one can close the barn door until 12/31/06.

02Roadking

09-15-2006, 04:56 PM

I like pansie smiles :p :D :D :) :D :rolleyes: :) :D :p :p

Claude91098

09-15-2006, 05:32 PM

I like pansie smiles :p :D :D :) :D :rolleyes: :) :D :p :p

Me TWO!:D :p :) :rolleyes: ;)

And...I was just referring to the "attitude" of the previous posters...as stated...I have no stake in this what so ever...just joining in the conversation...if you want me censored...just say so. Don't forget the pansie smileys....:mad: :p

I assume you know what ROFLMAO means? If not, find out...& lighten up!;)

Cecil is NOT coming back as a MJB. Ya'll can all chill now!:)

Seems it was all much ado about nothing anyway by some over-reactionaries.:rolleyes:

Claude91098

09-16-2006, 09:21 AM

Oh Alex...your such the flirt! LOL

Now your just suckin up.....or just sucking. ROFLMAO!

Cecil is NOT going to return. That outcome will be decided/has been decided without any regard to the protestors. All they accomplished was their 15 minutes of fame in the news, but didn't have any influence over anything.;-)

Claude91098

09-16-2006, 04:12 PM

Thank you Claude for showing exactly why this should not go to a vote. For folks such as yourself this is a borefest and an annoyance. You never even took the time to see what the cost would have been to every taxpayer in the city. Now for heavens sake its a saturday in St. Augustine. Shouldnt you be polishing your Ponce de Leon helmet or driving the shuttle or charging Tourist to park in your driveway?

We live in the "country"...but thank you for the well wishes!:p

I was under the impression that MetJax forums was free of name calling and cute references to other members....you have destroyed my faith in thinking I FINALLY found a fourm free of that sort of thing...unless...of course...you want to get along now....UNTIL something else comes along that I can have an opinion about that will piss you off???:D

Friends now???;)

Diane Melendez

09-16-2006, 04:19 PM

Actually Claude, I was just getting ready to ask alex to cool it with the names and anger. I understand passion alex, believe me I do, but please try not to be so insulting. Chill okay? We want to hear what you have to say, but don't lose your point to a quick temper.

Peace and Love.....If that's to much let's try tolerance for different opinions. Thanks kiddo. Glad Cecil worked out for you.:):):):):):):):):):):)
Sorry alex, I just had to! The smileys I mean!

chazj1

09-16-2006, 06:25 PM

If anyone questioned the bias of the Times Union - just check out today's paper in reference to Cecil.

The article printed leads with the appeal process as though that were the lead story.

The real lead story is that Judge Nachman rejected the Cecil referendum as misleading and false. Where is that story along with what was presented at trial? That is how a responsible newspaper would report the news. Then a second smaller article should have been presented voicing the opinions and pending appeal of Vote Jacksonville.

No matter where you stand, you would have to admit that responsible journalism this is not. Remember that unlike the somewhat informed people on this forum the masses are being fed propaganda by the Times Union.

Propaganda can be disguised not just in what is reported but also HOW it is reported.

I await replies to this post -what is responsible reporting?

Diane Melendez

09-16-2006, 06:40 PM

Well chaz, I think that titles to articles are meant to grab the reader. It is really that simple. Leading with "Appeal" as opposed to just stating the judges ruling is a far better hook for the news media. "Appeal" implys the fight is not yet over, more to come. It is about engaging the reader.

One thing I have noticed is that people who are deeply involved in a particular issue are much for sensative to the wording and tone of any given article on that issue. They are mentally weighing the impact of the words and whether or not the statment helps or hinders their stance and argument.

For example, I can bet you that I am far more interested in what the current mayor is up to than the average TU reader. People might be interested but do not measure the info one way or the other unless they are somewhat engaged and interested in politics. Most read an article on the mayor and move on.

I would be willing to bet this is the same dynamic surrounding the article about which you are writing. You are sensitized to it, but in my view it doesn't actually show a bias on the part of the TU.

Once after reading an editorial in the TU which portrayed the mayor as now engaged in the murder situation because he held a meeting led me to believe that the editor who wrote it must have been his bestist buddy. Who knows.

Responsible reporting, well the definition changes depending on who you are speaking to and their personal view. If you talk to someone opposed to the jet base they will likely tell you the article was not responsible. A person for the base would likely say, the article hit the mark.

Do as you will chaz. I would just let it go. It is not worth your worry. Most TU readers will not even remember they read it by now.

Charles Hunter

09-16-2006, 07:53 PM

[cynic hat=on]
Of course, if the referendum does get on the ballot, the T-U and all the TV stations (one led with something along the lines of 'judge takes away voters ability to decide', or some such) will reap thousands of dollars of ad revenue from both sides leading up to the vote.
[cynic hat=off]

chazj1

09-17-2006, 05:19 AM

Diane,

Are you trying to tell me that a headline reading "Judge Throws Out Cecil Field Referendum" wouldn't garner readership. I find that to be absurd - think about that yourself.

The Fourth Estate has responsibility to report the news fairly and accurately, and here in Jacksonville where their is only one newspaper it should be held to the highest standard because they have no competition for readership. No one will cancel their subscription if the TU reports the news properly - but a conception of bias will eventually doom the TU. If ever a second newspaper were to be launched the TU would be in trouble.

Everything you wrote validates my point. As a poltical candidate YOU are going to need the Times Union so I can understand how you can defend them.

Claude91098

09-17-2006, 08:23 AM

No one will cancel their subscription if the TU...

I DID!!! A long, long time ago!:D

Diane Melendez

09-17-2006, 01:15 PM

chaz1,

You asked for input, I gave you mine. Why are you so angry?

chaz, if you have followed my posts, you should have figured out that my statements are my view and not designed to win favor with one group or another.

The TU doesn't need me to defend them. I was pointing out that titles to articles are designed as hooks for the reading public. If in your estimation another title would have been more appropriate, than you are clearly welcome to that view and opinion.

Calm down. Relax. You got the response from the judge that you wanted. Why are you still picking battles or throwing out challenges? Get over it Chaz, you got what you wanted right? Stop throwing punches, your fight is over. You won.

chazj1

09-17-2006, 04:34 PM

Diane,

I am not mad at you or anyone else. You continually try to tell me that I am angry, I too am posting my opinion. If you want to read something into my posts that is up to you.

If you read my posts I have tried to back up my opinions with facts. The way I read the TU has alot to do with the fact that they are the first source of information that I have to make an informed decision. Those decisions will transcend the Cecil Field issue and I would hope that I will receive both sides of every debate fairly. At this point I fail to be assured that being the one horse (newspaper) town that this is that I will be getting every thing I need to know to be a good citizen.

Diane Melendez

09-17-2006, 04:55 PM

chaz1...The way I read the TU has alot to do with the fact that they are the first source of information that I have to make an informed decision. Those decisions will transcend the Cecil Field issue and I would hope that I will receive both sides of every debate fairly. At this point I fail to be assured that being the one horse (newspaper) town that this is that I will be getting every thing I need to know to be a good citizen.

Now that I can agree with. Fair enough! :)

Claude91098

09-17-2006, 07:53 PM

alex,

I have a 99' Chevy I'll have you know! LOL

The uproar about Cecil was always just that, FUD...(IMHO)...(I am entitled to MHO...aren't I? You are!)...You do know what FUD is don't you? The same method used by weather forecasters around here concerning hurricanes that won't come within a 1,000 miles of us! ;-)

Claude91098

09-18-2006, 09:49 AM

I wouldn't know what the Yankees call things...since I'm not one! ;-)

In the end of all this, what will happen will happen. Good, bad or otherwise. In a hundred years alex, no one will know any of us even lived, let alone remember anything about a Cecil field conflict!;-)

chazj1

09-18-2006, 10:10 AM

A hundred years from now - I hope that I have passed on a legacy to my great grand children that fighting for what is right is a noble and honorable thing to do!

Claude91098

09-18-2006, 03:00 PM

Now I'm kinda bummed Claude. If thats your outlook then whats the point of getting out of bed in the morning? Like Chaz I look to enjoy each day with my family and hope to make our life a better one for my children. I hope that its something they will pass down to their children and so on. Passion, purpose, fairness, and fighting to be heard in this huge world for what you believe in. Its what my parents did for me. I'm sorry to know that you never think of your parents, grandparents and so on. I am especially sad to hear that you never think past yourself and reflect on the sacrifices and many positives they commited in their lives that led you to where you are today. Perhaps Lexapro or paxil would help? I'm sure that the things you do mean something to someone somewhere.

alex & chaz...Your "family" may remember you. A picture in a photo album somewhere. Perhaps even a family story or two about how great-great-grand dad/mom did this or that...and that is wonderful! I'm writing my auto-biography...not for publishing but to pass down to my future generations.:)

Now, aside from family -- NO ONE will KNOW OR CARE a hundred years from now that you or I ever lived...period. If that depresses you then please, do not adopt a reality approach to life for you will be MAJOR depressed and disillutioned. I am NOT depressed and I enjoy life to the MAX! Everyday is an adventure! Like Jack said at dinner in the movie Titanic, "Yesterday I was sleeping under a bridge and now here I am having dinner on the finest ship in the world with you fine folks!" (Paraphrased...something to that effect!);)

The Cecil debate is what I was referring to. Do you HONESTLY think that a hundred years from now that ANYONE will give a flying crap about this issue that stirs all the passions TODAY? I kinda doubt it...A LOT!:p

chazj1

09-18-2006, 04:40 PM

Unless of course they try to re-open Cecil Field again in 2106 - LOL

Sometimes I think we are all too funny for words.

The tough thing about posting on forums is that it is so different than just talking. Talking is personal and when you sometimes have a chance to think about what you are saying and are able to adjust it with the back or delete button something gets lost in the translation. I hope that we all are remebered for something by someone even if it is the faint memory of the way grandpa smelled after tugging on his pipe.

I just deleted what I was going to say. Oh well here it is Love is a wonderful thing. Here's to love and understanding.

02Roadking

09-18-2006, 05:06 PM

I know you are but what am I
I know you are but what am I

Claude91098

09-18-2006, 10:23 PM

alex...I'm happy for ya! Really I am!

Just remember...not everyone thinks like you do, and in MY book...that's a GOOD thing! ;-)

Now, go feel sorry for someone else...I don't need your pity or agreement as you don't need mine either. Fair enough? :-)

Claude91098

09-19-2006, 01:32 PM

KUDOS! BRAVO ZULO! MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! HOO RAH!

Will that do instead??!! :-)

Claude91098

09-20-2006, 07:02 PM

And now it has been ruled that the referendum is to be on the ballot and decided later whether it is binding or not. So much for a dead issue huh?

I'm sorry alex...I hadn't heard that.:(

I hope you folks get what you want, really I do.:)

chazj1

09-20-2006, 07:44 PM

Coach1976

09-20-2006, 09:59 PM

I can.

johnmeeks1974

09-20-2006, 10:57 PM

This town is the pits!!!

For all its charm it is still a bassackwards small town like Mayberry RFD

Yes I am mad as hell!! No two ways about it. My house probably is now worth less than what I paid for it two years ago. Who else on the site can say the same?

Mayberry RFD? That's harsh! We don't even rate being compared to Mayberry before Andy left and Ken Berry came aboard! :p

thelakelander

09-20-2006, 11:24 PM

This town is the pits!!!

For all its charm it is still a bassackwards small town like Mayberry RFD

We are pretty backward, but wasn't this the state that overturned the ruling?

Jim

09-20-2006, 11:53 PM

Yes, this ruling came from Tally.

For all you conspiracy theorists out there, The Brothers Bush may be pulling a fast one here.

Jim

09-21-2006, 09:41 AM

No, he means the ruling to put Cecil back on the ballot came from Tally, not here.

chazj1

09-21-2006, 09:51 AM

The ruling may have come from Tally but it ALL started here in Jax. (actually this part started in Ponte Vedra)

I am very interested in seeing the courts actual opinion- does anyone have the FULL text yet? My guess is that Tally says that it should have been on the ballot as a straw vote (non-binding) and that they will review if it passes as to its legality as a binding resolution. I assume that means that as long as you can get 23,000 verified signatures you can basically place any thing on the ballot. I've heard quite a bit lately about a Bullet Train to Orlando. What's next a ________ go ahead and fill in the blank (funny answers are also acceptable)

The Ken Berry line was funny.

Watch out for Alex I have a sneaking suspicion he's about to blow-and this time I am with him!

02Roadking

09-21-2006, 01:19 PM

Alex, The Westside has to be where the Lovebugs roam. I work out by Pritchard & Jones 3 days a week and these suckers seem to swarm after about noon out there, but they aren't near as bad intown. They are really bad this year.

Coach1976

09-21-2006, 02:48 PM

I think that us Clay County people need to have a referendum of our own. I am asking anyone who reads this that knows anyone in Oakleaf (or Foxmeadow, or anyone in Clay for that matter) to please ask them to attend the BCC meeting on Sept. 26 at 2 pm in Green Cove.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

:) POLITICIANS & DIAPERS BOTH NEED TO BE CHANGED OFTEN, AND FOR THE SAME REASON-- bumper sticker

RiversideGator

09-21-2006, 03:30 PM

I wonder why the City and the Better Westside people are so opposed to a public vote on this (even if it is non-binding). Could it be that they are afraid that the people will not vote their way?

02Roadking

09-21-2006, 03:47 PM

Voting itself is not the problem, it is the facts that surround the item that your voting on.
Bullet Train, Great idea, huge cost
Class size Amendment, Great idea, huge cost
Master Jet Base, Great idea, huge cost
Just my 2 cents

chazj1

09-21-2006, 03:52 PM

If you have nothing at stake and are fed enough patriotic propaganda you are likely to vote for the (perceived) Red White and Blue - with or without the true facts.

Do you really believe that the Mayor and The City Council would commit "political suicide" if the real numbers did not support the claims of those on the Westside? How much political clot do you give the Westside?

From what I understand, the Westside has always been looked down upon in this town. I live in Clay, but while my house was being built we took an apartment (unseen, from the internet for 90 days we were told 30 days but you know how some lie) on the Westside, my co-workers couldn't believe that I would live there. I had no idea of the seperatism of communities in this town.

I can tell you this, to not be master of your own domain is a scary thing. We are afraid that a vote will not go our way because it means or lives. You would feel the same way!

Coach1976

09-21-2006, 04:18 PM

FROM CHAZ: "If you have nothing at stake and are fed enough patriotic propaganda you are likely to vote for the (perceived) Red White and Blue - with or without the true facts."

That's the gist of this, Gator. Unfortunately, the billions of dollars (proven in court testimony) that this would cost is not stipulated in the ballot summary, which was deemed illegal. Here's some quotes straight from Judge Nachman's ruling:

“the proposed ballot title and ballot summary violate the requirements of section 101.161, Florida Statutes (2005) and §18.05 (j), City of Jacksonville Charter in that they mislead voters both by what they say and imply, and by what is left unsaid.”

”A ballot title or summary that is misleading, that “hides the ball,” or that “flies under false colors” regarding a proposed amendment’s “true effect” violates Florida law.”

“As this Court stated in Askew, “[t]he burden of informing the public should not fall only on the press and opponents of the measure--the ballot . . . summary must do this.”

“this Court has repeatedly held that ballot summaries which do not adequately define terms, use inconsistent terminology, fail to mention constitutional provisions that are affected, and do not adequately describe the general operation of the proposed amendment must be invalidated.”

“[E]ven if the proposed Charter Amendment could be fully implemented, the relocation of the base remains merely a possibility contingent upon a number of factors, such as appropriations and property conveyances from the State of Florida and the actions of independent authorities, that are speculative and beyond the powers of the City or the proposed Charter Amendment to effectuate. Thus, the ballot title makes a promise, or at least leads voters to believe, that voting “Yes” will result in the return of the airbase, although it will not.”

“The ballot title and summary mislead voters into believing that the City actually owns, and has the legal ability to convey “title” to, the entire former NAS Cecil Field property and its infrastructure and can meet the requirements of BRAC #193 by simply conveying its ownership interest. As the parties have stipulated, this simply is not true. The City has no legally enforceable way to acquire or convey properties owned by other entities, even if it were otherwise possible to meet the December 31, 2006 deadline.”

“The ballot summary misleads voters by stating that BRAC #193’s requirements will be met in all respects. One of BRAC #193’s requirements, however, is that the property of former NAS Cecil Field must be free of all encumbrances. It states that the “State of Florida may not encumber the title by any restrictions other than a reversionary clause in favor of the State of Florida and short-term tenancies consistent with the relocation of the Master Jet Base to Cecil Field.” BRAC #193. The stipulations and evidence demonstrate, however, that the City’s property is encumbered by conservation easements that would require at least $28.1 million in appropriations to remove. [VoteJacksonville] admitted at trial that BRAC #193 requires the removal of the easements to eliminate the encumbrance on the property and that the cost of doing so was substantial. Thus, this item alone is a significant violation of section 101.161 because voters are misled into believing that their “Yes” vote will result in the City’s “meet[ing] the requirements” of BRAC #193 when the encumbrance element of BRAC is not addressed.”

“The ballot summary misleads voters by accurately stating that BRAC requires the transfer of all property of the former NAS Cecil Field, but then in its definition section omits the Clay County portion of former NAS Cecil Field, thereby making the referendum noncompliant with BRAC #193. This portion of former NAS Cecil Field was part of the BRAC record and August 20, 2005 hearing, and the Court concludes that its exclusion from the proposed Charter Amendment will not be viewed charitably by BRAC, which requires strict compliance with its recommendations. This omission is fatally misleading to voters.”

“The ballot summary “hides the ball” by concealing the fact that the City will incur substantial costs of compliance with BRAC that will require appropriations, the use of budgetary powers, substantial loss of revenue, and other financial risks.”

“By “hiding the ball” on the fact that funding and appropriations will be necessary, the ballot summary violates section 101.161 “

“The ballot summary misleads voters by failing to include or even mention the JAA, which owns and operates the airport at Cecil Field. The Defendants claim that the JAA is merely a “subordinate” agency of the City. The JAA, however, is an independent authority created and governed by special acts of the Florida Legislature, over which the City has no ultimate control.”

“Finally, the Court finds the Amendment is invalid because it “must necessarily involve binding the Jacksonville City Council to budgeting for, appropriating, and possibly levying taxes to raise, the funds needed to” comply with its terms.”

“[Vote Jacksonville’s] argument that section 18.05(l) requires a straw ballot would create the absurd result that the laudable purpose of section 101.161 is nullified for no discernible public purpose other than to allow voters to express their non-binding votes on misleading referenda…No purpose is served by a straw vote on a question set forth in a misleading ballot summary. Indeed, the Court notes that section 101.161 has been held to apply even to straw ballots.”

“First, the ballot summary misleads voters into believing the Charter Amendment is without cost by its failure to make any mention of necessary funding or appropriations. Its sponsors, however, knew that compliance with their proposed Charter Amendment would be expensive, costing the City millions of dollars. Although they claimed in discovery and their answers to interrogatories that it would impose no cost on the City, at trial they admitted the cost would be substantial. Indeed, as the stipulations and evidence at trial demonstrated, compliance with BRAC #193 will be extremely costly to the City to implement.”

thelakelander

09-21-2006, 04:38 PM

Bullet Train, Great idea, huge cost

Bullet Train was a great idea and the cost wasn't really that much if you consider what we spend for road construction. The only flaw I thought that plan had was constructing this system in the middle of I-4 between Tampa and Orlando. The distance between those two cities is close enough to run commuter rail on existing rail lines. Nevertheless, sooner or later, we're going to need high speed rail and delaying the planning and construction (without an effective alternative plan) only means we'll pay billions more in the future. Our courthouse situation is a great example of what's eventually going to pass with the bullet train.

Claude91098

09-21-2006, 05:13 PM

From what I understand, the Westside has always been looked down upon in this town. I live in Clay, but while my house was being built we took an apartment (unseen, from the internet for 90 days we were told 30 days but you know how some lie) on the Westside, my co-workers couldn't believe that I would live there. I had no idea of the seperatism of communities in this town.

I used to live on the westside and eventually moved to Middleburg. From there I moved to Green Cove Springs and now I live just across the river on SR 13. I was stationed at Cecil from 1973 to 1978 and NAS Jax from 1984 until I retired in 1990.

You are correct my dear: The "westside" has always been percieved by the rest of Jacksonvile as "yee hawville", "redneck city"...pick your label. And you know what? Had the people that lived there not acted that way, then perhaps they wouldn't have been tagged with all those derogatory names. I lived there too, I saw it and was probably part of it for a short while...but you know what they say, "When in Rome..."
(I'm country...not redneck...there IS a difference!);)
I always liked the people on the westside and still have friends there. Good friendly folks that liked the country living...but that isn't the case anymore...the developers built the high density PUDS and the yuppies flooded in. The westside isn't the old westside anymore. A few of the old stereotypes still reside there, but mostly they are fading away. When you can drive all over the westside one day and NOT see more than a half dozen Confederate battle flags....you'll know they finally died off!:D
The "stigma" has been attached to the westside since long before your or my time dear...just ignor it. It may go away someday but I doubt you or I will live to see it!;)

And Middleburg? Hell sweatheart...If you live in Middleburg it's going to take about another 100 years to live that one down! LOL:D (To all my friends in Middleburg...just funnin' ya!);)

As far as the Cecil issue goes...I have come to wish that they just drop the whole thing. No one cares about this country's best interest anymore. Hell, if the Mexicans have THEIR way we'll all have to learn Spanish to live in the USA within our lifetimes!:(

chazj1

09-21-2006, 07:35 PM

The media battle is joined. I hope that there is an apathetic turnout by those who don't really care one way or the other. I can tell you one thing, I will go door to door up and down Argyle Forest Blvd. (middle class homes now) to get this thing stopped. I hope that anyone else who will be DIRECTLY effected by this will do the same in the Duval neighborhoods.

As far as the Ex-military people and current military people who live in the area that moved here after the base left -I think that they may say one thing (or are silent) in public but will vote NO to have the Navy return. They know the difference between peace and quiet and raising a family with a certain quality of life. They too have an economic stake in this, they moved in bought homes, even though they know they will be relocated one day, for the economic opportunity. there are plenty of those here in Oakleaf. They may say Navy Blue thru and thru but they don't want to lose their investment dollars either.

I bet that their buddies stationed at Oceana aren't griping about poor training conditions. The real gripe is from the brass about future encroachment.

This is a battle about MONEY and the greedy individuals who stand to profit. These people will stop at nothing to turn a buck, including wrapping themselves up in Old Glory.

Claude91098

09-21-2006, 09:15 PM

When I said I wished they would just drop it, I meant the NAVY and the pro-Cecil folks...so alex and chaz...I'm on YOUR side. I hope your remarks weren't aimed at me. You wouldn't want to alienate a "convert" now would ya? ;-)

RiversideGator

09-21-2006, 11:24 PM

I am not sure that most people on the westside are even opposed to the return of the Navy to Cecil. This is why I would like to see how the precincts vote. As I said, I am on the fence re this. I know it would be good for business though.

BTW, I arguably live on the westside too.

RiversideGator

09-21-2006, 11:24 PM

Oh, and a Naval Air Station is not a landfill.

TheITSteve

09-22-2006, 12:06 AM

Would you be afraid if I was voting to put a landfill near your home? or a jet base or a wall-mart.

A landfill doesn't generate thousands of jobs, and Wal-Mart jobs aren't exatly a targeted industry. Things like Wal-Marts, landfills, homeless shelters, low income housing are not economic development engines, and do not provide a major impact on people living 40 miles away. However, a jet base does.

Personally, I would buy residential property near a 12,000 foot runway. Lord knows that with the cost of building an airport these days, using a 2 1/2 mile long runway runway for Cessna's would be a bit of a waste.

thelakelander

09-22-2006, 09:23 AM

And if the Navy is such an economic windfall of life changing stature why wont Oceana commit to doing what BRAC wants and why didnt the city of Jax fall off the face of the earth when it left in 99?

1/3 of Cecil's operations moved to NAS Jax and we have a diversified economy, which explains us not dropping off the face of the earth.

Virginia Beach is in a no win situation. To buy out the thousands of homes and businesses, they've allowed to encroach on the base throughout the years is just as damaging to their economy as letting the base go.

Considering their level of encroachment (Cecil's a rain forest compared to what's around Oceana), if I were a VaBeach official, I'd tell the Navy to leave and close the door on the way out.

chazj1

09-22-2006, 10:20 AM

thelakelander

09-22-2006, 10:55 AM

Lake, through your line of thinking if the area around Cecil continues to be developed - then you would at some point be willing to tell the Navy to leave and close the door on the way out? What does that say about which way Jax should go. By the way now, you sound like Mayor Peyton before he realized how much building has gone on in the area. WE ARE NOT A BUNCH OF PINE TREES _ WE ARE PEOPLE and you seem to forget that whenever it is convenient for you.

You're not going to get anywhere throwing your frustrations at me. I don't have a jet base to give or take away. The issues Va Beach faces, really have nothing to do with Cecil and sprawl in Jax. On top of that, the gulf between the two is so distant that anyone attempting to comparing them head-to-head only makes Vote Jacksonville's point of view more credible.

My opinion of seeing an airport and residential use as incompatible land uses remains the same regardless of it being an aerospace commerce center or jet base. As you know if I had it my way, most of the undeveloped land would be rezoned to eliminate the possibility of residential encroachment around the airport before it would get to be what VaBeach faces today.

If you want to fight the good fight and bring the masses to your side, you'll need to channel the heated emotion and fear into a well planned campaign concentrating on proving why the master jet base is a bad idea, compared to the commerce center. This means going out and gathering solid proof backing your cause and aggressively selling it to the general population before November rolls around.

Forget the business opportunities at Cecil the land development alone is worth NOT having the Navy come back. Also, Oceana would not be turned over to Va Beach Naval operation swould continue and that is another factor. The land and runways have been turned over to the JAA and as stated at trial it is worth 1.3 billion dollars. I am sorry that the DOD is so frivolous with their assets - do we need to be too? Underwood (votejax) says the JAA opinion that the runways are worth 1.3 billion dollars is a crock because it was handed over to them by the DOD His argument is that because it washanded over it makes that land worthless and should just be given back to the DOD. What kind of logic is that?

Here's a start. Prove why we'll be better off with a commerce center, than a master jet base. Prove that the jobs will be higher paying and that economic study done by the city was flawed. Gather this info and the solid documents, aerials, studies, etc. backing it up and get this out in the open to the general public. If you can gather it, I have no problem scanning the info and getting it up on the metrojacksonville.com site for all to see.

You should know that, as to encroachment that was a two way street, as loader and more powerful planes came on line at Oceana the APZ and AICUZ zones EXPANDED . It wasn't hust that home building encroached on the base.Interestingly today the Navy retired the F-14 and are replaceing them with the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets......which by the way is 4 times louder than the Tomcat. In 2009 the Joint Strike Fighter comes on line which will be loader and more powerful than the previous planes.

Here's another idea. Gather old AICUZ/APZ maps that show a progression of expansion with every new and louder jet that comes into service. Provide these along with the planned Super Hornet APZ and AICUZs. This will get you and Better Westside further in your efforts to convince voters to back your side.

thelakelander

09-22-2006, 11:13 AM

I do remember you telling me Lake that no decision should be made on this unless there was an in depth non bias study. If you stand by your word then you will clearly vote no on this issue. No study will or has been done. To vote for this is to vote blindly. This was not my idea, it was yours. So I have to at least be greatfull that you are a man of weighing the issue and could not in good conscious vote for something that would be a total gamble of billions of dollars without the facts.

Actually, voting NO without seeking to educate yourself as much as possible on this issue, is just as bad as voting YES. Its also not too late for each side to gather information needed to back their opinions. Its out there (as its always been) and you don't need to take a page out of the mayor's office to hire consultants to find it.

For example, if you want to really know the number of homes existing and proposed in the AICUZ zones you don't have to wait on the city. Request the lastest military AICUZ maps/aerials and overlay them over maps showing the lastest proposed developments, then hand count the number of lots and units within those borders.

If you believe thousands of these jets will be flying into NAS Jax, impacting the entire Westside and other parts of the city, once again request the latest AICUZ maps here, as well as in Hampton Roads, VA. Then show the number/fequency of Oceana jets flying into other area airports as proof of these operations involving more than just Cecil and Whitehouse.

Today is September 22 and the vote isn't till November. You have a whole month to get this stuff together and get it in the papers, local websites, radio and TV news stations. Once again, whatever you can gather, we're willing to get it up on our sites.

chazj1

09-22-2006, 11:51 AM

thelakelander

09-22-2006, 12:46 PM

Why do you lambast me for being frustrated - the same as you I write my opinons. And in my opinion I believe that you forget the human factor in favor of perceived numbers.

Please try to refrain from telling me what my feelings are - when I am mad I will let you know, by saying so. Just because I capitalize some words doesn't mean I am lashing out at you - I am trying to emphasize a point, it is not meant as a scream.

I'm not trying to lambast you for feeling frustrated. I'm just trying (I'll admit I'm doing a bad job) to direct your emotions into producing a more powerful argument that will be needed to pursuade the common voter to your side. That's all.

thelakelander

09-22-2006, 01:27 PM

Alex, if you're looking for me to give you an official yay or nay, right now you're out of luck. I still have a whole month before I finally make up my mind.

I do believe a study, evaluating the pros and cons (both economic and quality of life) should have been done by the city made up its mind. To this date, the economic side has been done. One, last year by the Univ of West Florida (westsiders say is flawed) and another a few years ago, by Trilegacy, when they master planned to commerce center. However the real and actual economic lesson is Oceana itself. So the economic side has already been solved for me.

Next is quality of life. This includes the extent of noise, naval flight patterns, no cross county coordination of planning and extend of residential encroachment. I believe the maps Suzanne Jenkins presented are the latest military APZ and AICUZ graphics the city has, so I'll be using those for my personal evaluation over the next month. If anyone has something updated, please post.

So to sum it all up, although the city never paid a consultant $500k to come up with an official study, I believe I will have enough information to make an informed and educated decision by November. Although that official study was never done, the battles waged and angles being presented from both sides, as well as my personal research are probably just as good as any official study would have been (for me personally).

So, my vote won't be based on the opinions of the mayor, council or Ken Underwood (I found too much dirt to take anything for these groups as face value). It will be based on the research we have so far, what I can find, as well as the arguments presented over the next month.

Btw, you may not believe it or not, but I do check out the Better Westside site quite often.

thelakelander

09-22-2006, 04:00 PM

Please Ennis dont be confused. I am surely not asking for your official yay or nay. I am fairly confident my nay offsets your yay. What I was doing was replying to your reply to my quote. And also using your many past postings of needing a study. You say the city needs a study to make an informed decision. If your opinion is similar to others { and god lets hope not} then I say you didnt get your study and are voting in the dark. I say you cant possibly know the answers to the quality of life issues you say are pertinent to an informed vote. You dont know the extent of the noise since certain jets have yet to fly here. But you know they are louder than those in the past. You wont know Naval flight patterns since they dont know them either. And even the images we get from google earth are 2 years old. Facts are this. You dont know all the facts. You are shooting blind.

Fact is, I probably know just as much about this as you. Based on what we know, and what we'll attempt to learn (we'll at least me) we'll vote a certain way, come November. My only advice at this point is for you to continue to push for what you believe in, by searching for facts backing your stance rather than fuming off emotions only. I believe you'll convert more to your side if take it the way Russ has. Btw, instead of google, try the new images on the property appraiser's site. they've been taken since this issue hit the fan last year.

To sum it all up. The leaders who were voted into office by the majority have made a decision based on the facts they have. An unbiased study [ The westside doesnt say its flawed it says its biased to say what it was intended to say for the opinion at the time. ] is not available to you or anyone at this time. Its your argument from 3 weeks ago Ennis. lol. You cant make an informed decision. Therefore shouldnt your faith in your american government [ since this has become a patriotic fight also] be enough to stand behind when its their opinion we need in this time of uncertainty?

Put my faith in my local government? The same one that can't get a courthouse underway, is willing to let JTA spend $700 million on BRT, wants to eliminate the landing for a merry-go-round, spend millions on kiddie backpacks with the mayor's face on it, then consider giving Walmart incentives to move a warehouse to Cecil with jobs that only pay $23k a year. What is this, a joke. I won't but feel free to put your faith behind them.

You say that you have found dirt in your research of Underwood. Yet without him this discussion is not taking place. So its fine to get in bed with him as long as its a means to your end? Dont you feel like you need a shower? I mean lets be honest here Lake. You know the people near Cecil dont want the base. Or again this discussion is not taking place. Yet its what to you. An acceptable death rate as long as it isnt you? Its that order of " charge" knowing that ten percent frag rate is coming but hey its not you right? I dont know. You better hope your future never depends on someone elses opinion who doesnt know or care about you. .....Or worse ....they do know you......cmon its a joke.....

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I've never claimed to lie in the bed with Underwood. I've never wrapped myself in the flag with this issue or shouted....that's the sound of freedom. All I know about the guy is what's been said about him from Westsiders and what's mentioned in the media and this site.

As I said earlier, I don't have a master jet base to give or take away. You're wasting your time trying to debate this issue with me. At this point, you're better off getting out on foot and selling your position to the rest of the community, during the month remaining. As I said earlier, If you guys can supply maps, documents, etc. promoting your cause, we're willing to get it up here for everyone to see.

Coach1976

09-22-2006, 04:36 PM

Lake, you said that your mind is made up on the economic side of the argument, based on the economic study that 'Jeb' did. Well, let me point out that Westsiders did not say it was flawed: Virginia did.

RKG Associates, Inc, who did the Economic Impact study for Virginia, based their study on both sides of the equation (if jets stayed, and if jets left). Here is what they said about Jeb's study:
"A primary assumption made in [the Florida] study was that all the base purchases would impact the local or regional economy. Our research on Oceana determined that the overwhelming majority of these base expenditures are not purchased in our local economy (or likely theirs either)."

Lake, you said, and I quote "However the real and actual economic lesson is Oceana itself. So the economic side has already been solved for me."" If we can only base our assumptions on what is going on economically in Oceana, then I think that we ought to trust the experts, who are from Oceana, the people who have the actual numbers. And they have discredited The West Florida Report's determination of the economic benefits to our city.

Coach1976

09-22-2006, 04:52 PM

Additionally, From 2005 BRAC:
"I believe one of the members asked specifically, is Cecil Field a viable option? And the unanimous answer of all the Naval officials on Monday was absolutely not-- not a good alternative. Compound that with whatever encroachment already takes place at Cecil and add to the fact that there is much less unrestricted air space because of the tremendous commercial air traffic in that area. And again, we come back to the starting point of what the Navy has made its point: Oceana remains the best Master Jet Base on the East Coast."-- Virginia Governor Mark Warner, to BRAC

Lake, Gator, Everyone... The Navy looked at Cecil. The Navy. They didn't think it would work. They asked for almost twice the acreage that Cecil has to offer when they made their recommendations before that BRAC hearing, because of the Hornets and the JSF. So, Underwood is trying to wrap this in the American flag, when Cecil has been determined to not be a viable alternative to Oceana BY THE NAVY. ALL THE NAVY OFFICIALS, as the Governor IN SWORN TESTIMONY is quoted above as saying.
Can you understand how this is all about politics? the pork?
And if you re-read the quote above, you'll see that encroachment was mentioned. Which goes back to what I have been saying all along: Our government here in Florida knew that there was a hell of a lot more than Pine Trees out here. The Brass saw that when they came out here. In August 2005 (as early after the BRAC hearings as that), Gov. Mark Warner, said "Cecil has too many question marks" and the presentation by Virginia noted the 30-mile flight path puts aviators into commercial air space and 26 schools in the way as planes travel to sea. (Virgina has 7 schools in the path).
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/082105/met_19556258.shtml

Once these facts are out, I don't see how anyone would vote YES on this ballot.

thelakelander

09-22-2006, 05:29 PM

thelakelander

09-22-2006, 05:43 PM

I would never attempt to put words in your mouth Lake. You said you had found dirt on Mr. Underwood and thats why you dont trust his opinion.[ at least thats what you wrote.] If not for Underwood this vote never comes to bat. No matter how you feel with him its he who brought this to bear. Its his bed you are in sir. You can wrap it any way you like but if not for he this never comes to be. You vote for the base you are his sleeping partner. Its his unknown goal you help to achieve. Noone spends a mill unless hes getting 2 back.

The dirt on Underwood comes from those not wanting the base. Its also hard to believe that someone would put up that much of his personal money on something like this doesn't have ulterior motives. But I fail to see how going against future sprawl and low wage distribution centers at Cecil puts potential yes voters in the bed with Ken. If that's the case, we're either in bed with Ken or NEFBLA. From that point of view, it looks like a no win situation to me.

As far as your attack on the mayor thats fine. But the story remains the same. This is not just the mayors opinion its the mayor, city council and a judge and the people of the westside. Perhaps I should look for your name on the ballot sir if you can help ud move in a better direction. Its kinda easy to sit after the facts and say Del Rio should have run instead of passed. You have access to a web site and the ability to run if you wish to change things.

No need to attack the mayor, the failures I mentioned are true and very easily to look up, if you wish. He's the reason this is still going on today. If an once of research was put in before they offered Cecil to the BRAC, there would be no Ken Underwood or referendum. The city's Cecil property would still be the undeveloped grass patch it is today.

Also everything I've mentioned here today, is the exact same thing I mentioned last August, before the plug was pulled. If your interested check out the Virginia Beach and old Jacksonville forum at urbanplanet.org. So nothing is after the fact, its more consistant, if anything.

I do apologize that I have to bring my fight here. Health issues keep me pretty much nailed down. Sorry if thats a problem for you. I wrote, you answered, and I let you know that you didnt address my statement. If you dont wish to banter on this then dont reply.

Don't apologize, this is a public forum, if every one agreed with each other on every issue, there would be no need for one. Btw, I believe I answered the question you asked, with the recent series of posts I made in this thread.

thelakelander

09-22-2006, 05:48 PM

Claude91098

09-22-2006, 07:31 PM

Lake...does anyone think that this now a "hot button issue" because this is an election cycle...maybe?? :-D

chazj1

09-22-2006, 08:19 PM

Lake,

You are for the base coming back to Cecil or for the disruption of the current political regime, through this political football.

That is my opinion - plain and simple.

Disagree all you want, but the posts you have made bear this out, to me.

We all talk about opinions - but when strung together your agenda is pretty obvious. Three themes come to the forefront;

The rest of us have to:

1)prove to you that the MJB is the wrong decision (never in your opinion is the MJB wrong)

2)prove to you that the Commerce Center is right decision (it is never the MJB is the wrong choice) I'll give you this, once in a while you say we need more than distributioon centers at CCC (agreed) but even your comments are a stab at current policy makers. Why don't you believe that the JAA and Cornerstone are trying to attract high wage- technology firms to CCC? Could it be that because of the current situation they feel forced to take whatever comes along, instead of having the longterm opportunity to attract the very companies you claim to covet.

3) prove to you that the current potical regime is worthy to stay in office

Show me in your past posts any different stance and I will apologize.

I'll tell you one thing I do not like about this particular format is the quote function - it gives anyone the ability to take quotes out of context.. change it so that only full text can be argued for or against.

thelakelander

09-22-2006, 08:21 PM

one question at a time.

Sprawl? If we are to believe that there will be so many jobs coming with a base. And we have 3% unemployment then where will the employees be coming from?

From out of town, as well as educated residents who continue to leave the city for greener pastures. They call this syndrome brain drain or something to that effect. To stop it, we'll have to grow to the point where we don't go gaa gaa goo goo over the next Macy's, warehouse or call center that comes to town.

Better yet where will they live?

With proper planning, hopefully not under airport runways or next to steel mills and railyards. Outside of that, there's plenty of room all over town to accomodate future residents, as well as Clay County.

Will it be the urban sprawl you detest so much? [ I just hate those manicured lawns]

While we can't avoid sprawl, we can manage it and properly plan for it, instead of letting it sprout like weeds. Preferably, the additional growth would be planned in a fashion that encourages mixed-use, residents to walk more than every blue moon, and street patterns that don't force residents of large developments to enter/exit through one entry onto one over congested highway.

Where will their children go to school? Will jets fly over their schools too? And if the planning of this city is so bad now who in the world will coordinate this influx?

1. They would go to school in existing and new school buildings.
2. To a certain degree jets fly all over the city already. I was recently on one that flew over Ponte Vedra on a trip from Boston to Orlando. Anyway, they wouldn't be built in APZ crash zones.
3. Bingo, we have a city wide election coming up in the Spring. Time for some new blood with open minds who are ready to move this city forward, instead of accepting and maintaining status quo.

Especially if we are in such bad hands. And who will pay for it all?

With proper budgeting, you'll find our tax dollars can stretch a lot further than they currently do. We can start by reducing the amount on money spent on consulting fees, Mayor's office salaries or corporate incentives (welfare, according to RTSH's group). So, in short, the city plans, pays for public infrastructure and private development handles the rest.

This has to be done before the base gets here correct? Schools, homes, roads. Oh no the sprawl.

Whether its a base, Toyota or Bridgestone, we should be planning right now.

We have said from the start. And I have said in here myself many times that this starts with Mr. Peyton. This is not new ground Lake. We have been there and done that. The only difference is he has learned from his mistake. He has done some homework and seen the future cost and its big. And its not just dollars and cents.

Are you 100% sure there aren't any ulterior motives at play or is Peyton Mother Teresa in your eyes? I'm sorry that I don't view local government through rose colored glasses. I'm just not ready to drink that kool aid.

I dont apologize Lake. Its just that we have huge differences. I have been in an industry where death came daily. I had the chance to spend many last days with many people. I have had the experience of having a doctor look me in the eye and tell me I have an incurable fatal disease. Needless to say its a life altering moment. Those experiences have made me see what quality of life is all about. Hopefully its experience you dont have. But quality of life and protecting it is something you should learn about. Dollars and cents are not the measuring stick of life Lake. The city doesnt win just because it has the biggest pile. If people cant enjoy the city who cares what it offers.

Now thats my opinion. Thats how this started. With my opinion on what someone wrote not named Lake. Then you commented and so on. Lets agree to disagree and leave it at that. Now stop the obsessive compulsion to quote me and retort. I can assure you that someday you will have the last word. Hopefully not too soon. Now leave me be. You dont have to agree with me thats cool. We just nix each other out. Right?

Cool, Good for you. Peace! case closed.